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When deciding GOAT player, how you you rank these factors?
Posted on 5/4/17 at 2:45 pm
Posted on 5/4/17 at 2:45 pm
In order of importance.
-# of Championships
-Stats
-Individual awards/records
-Physical abilities
-Intangibles (will to win, leadership, confidence)
-performance under pressure
-# of Championships
-Stats
-Individual awards/records
-Physical abilities
-Intangibles (will to win, leadership, confidence)
-performance under pressure
This post was edited on 5/4/17 at 2:49 pm
Posted on 5/4/17 at 2:54 pm to PeteRose
Stats
Intangibles (will to win, leadership, confidence)
Individual awards/records
performance under pressure
Physical abilities
# of Championships
Intangibles (will to win, leadership, confidence)
Individual awards/records
performance under pressure
Physical abilities
# of Championships
Posted on 5/4/17 at 2:56 pm to PeteRose
1. Stats - Have to have them no matter what
2. # of Championships - Have to win at least a few while also being the best player on those teams
3. Intangibles - I put pressure performance here too
4. Awards - If you are being the GOAT these will come
5. Physical abilities - Don't really care how you look. Jerry Rice and Barry Sanders are some of the GOAT and didn't look it
How many super athletes come through into all these leagues who don't make it while guys who are "undersized" or "small" go far
2. # of Championships - Have to win at least a few while also being the best player on those teams
3. Intangibles - I put pressure performance here too
4. Awards - If you are being the GOAT these will come
5. Physical abilities - Don't really care how you look. Jerry Rice and Barry Sanders are some of the GOAT and didn't look it
How many super athletes come through into all these leagues who don't make it while guys who are "undersized" or "small" go far
Posted on 5/4/17 at 2:59 pm to PeteRose
quote:
In order of importance.
-# of Championships
-Stats
-Individual awards/records
-Physical abilities
-Intangibles (will to win, leadership, confidence)
-supporting cast
-performance under pressure
Half the time unknown. It's so subjective unless they were a superstar on their own before teaming up with said superstar...ala LeBron and Wade.
But, who the frick knows how good Worthy would have been without a career getting free layups.
Or McHale and the Chief being able to never be double-teamed because everybody was watching Bird...who would pass them the easy under the basket dunk or layup.
So supporting cast is just an exercise is make believe speculation. Stars make great players...I love when people say...well Magic played with All-Stars!...Apart from Kareem, Magic MADE THEM ALL-STARS!
Stats don't mean jack squat. Don't mean anything. Total misnomer in evaluating basketball players for posterity.
As Kevin McHale said in that great documentary...
"Larry and Magic could take 12 shots...be something like 18 points, 10 rebounds and 12 assists and control the game...and be the best players on the court BY FAR!"
And as Bird said...when comparing himself to Magic...I go by success so I give him the nod.
1. Success
2. Awards (I think it's important, it shows what the peers thought at the time of you...no retro-active bullshite from people who never saw the person play...like how people bitch about Bird...dude only won rookie of the year and MVPS over Magic...that shows you what the people who actually watched players play thought of them.)
3. Intangibles - killer on the court and alpha male attitude cannot be understated. Magic would smile at you but want to cut your heart out. Bird would dog everyone in the league and trash talk them into submission.
If you want to separate some...then you can add stats. But like I said, some played to win, some played to pad stats like some selfish a-holes in the 70's and early 80's.
Physical abilities? What does this even mean? You can be a great basketball or baseball player and not be that great physically.
Posted on 5/4/17 at 3:00 pm to PeteRose
# of Championships
Record Stats
Intangibles
General Stats
Performance Under Pressure
Individual Awards
Physical Abilities
Record Stats
Intangibles
General Stats
Performance Under Pressure
Individual Awards
Physical Abilities
Posted on 5/4/17 at 3:04 pm to PeteRose
quote:
-# of Championships
This is the thing that matters the least to me, at least in team sports.
Posted on 5/4/17 at 3:13 pm to pvilleguru
quote:
This is the thing that matters the least to me, at least in team sports.
I mean you have to win 1 or 2 right? You can't be the best to ever play and never win the championship
Posted on 5/4/17 at 3:15 pm to pvilleguru
quote:
quote:
-# of Championships
This is the thing that matters the least to me, at least in team sports.
Easily baseball...
Large degree in football except for QB - except for QB...he who controls so much of a teams' destiny by having the ball in his hands all the time.
But basketball? 5 guys on a court. You never played high school basketball or even a rec league game?
One guy can TOTALLY control a game and dominate and determine the outcome. Don't be obtuse.
Titles mean EVERYTHING to a large degree in basketball. If you are supremely talented you can carry Tom, Dick and Harry to the title.
This post was edited on 5/4/17 at 3:17 pm
Posted on 5/4/17 at 3:19 pm to PeteRose
1. Stats - Production/efficiency is king, it's more important than the other 5 combined.
2. Individual awards/records - Less on the awards and more on the records, as that tells you where you are all time in a certain category
3. Performance under pressure - Not too big on this one as i'm not sure when we're talking GOAT, aka best of the best, that these players are falling victim to the moment, so its' not all that relevant for the most part.
4. # of championships - Little value - too many variables involved to put much stock into this
5. Physical abilities - Entirely irrelevant.
2. Individual awards/records - Less on the awards and more on the records, as that tells you where you are all time in a certain category
3. Performance under pressure - Not too big on this one as i'm not sure when we're talking GOAT, aka best of the best, that these players are falling victim to the moment, so its' not all that relevant for the most part.
4. # of championships - Little value - too many variables involved to put much stock into this
5. Physical abilities - Entirely irrelevant.
This post was edited on 5/4/17 at 3:21 pm
Posted on 5/4/17 at 3:28 pm to PeteRose
Stats
Induvidual awards
Championships
Induvidual awards
Championships
Posted on 5/4/17 at 3:31 pm to Buckeye06
quote:
I mean you have to win 1 or 2 right?
No.
Posted on 5/4/17 at 3:32 pm to mizzoubuckeyeiowa
quote:
But basketball? 5 guys on a court. You never played high school basketball or even a rec league game?
Even basketball. And I did play basketball.
This post was edited on 5/4/17 at 3:33 pm
Posted on 5/4/17 at 3:33 pm to PeteRose
I don't think you can ever compare players across multiple generations by #championships, stats, etc. Stats can be affected by generational factors, game changes, etc. Championships can be affected by things such as league expansion, salary caps, etc.
You have to look at a player and see how he performed against his generational peers.
In other words, I think individual awards, while very flawed, is the best way to determine a GOAT athlete.
If you are talking individual sports like golf and tennis, then I think Championships and Individual Awards go hand-in-hand.
You have to look at a player and see how he performed against his generational peers.
In other words, I think individual awards, while very flawed, is the best way to determine a GOAT athlete.
If you are talking individual sports like golf and tennis, then I think Championships and Individual Awards go hand-in-hand.
Posted on 5/4/17 at 3:37 pm to PeteRose
Stats - Efficiency in particular
Ability to fit/work/make others work in a system so that it gives freedom to people who's job it is to build a basketball team and makes their job(winning) more probable
Availability/length of dominance
Physical abilities
Championships
Awards mean literally nothing.
Ability to fit/work/make others work in a system so that it gives freedom to people who's job it is to build a basketball team and makes their job(winning) more probable
Availability/length of dominance
Physical abilities
Championships
Awards mean literally nothing.
This post was edited on 5/4/17 at 3:47 pm
Posted on 5/4/17 at 3:44 pm to PeteRose
There's a reason Kareem went something like 154-4 in High School and College...and it wasn't because he was playing with Jordan and Magic.
Great players dominate the opposition and control their teams destiny.
Jordan never had a great supporting cast but he made average players champions.
Great players dominate the opposition and control their teams destiny.
Jordan never had a great supporting cast but he made average players champions.
Posted on 5/4/17 at 3:47 pm to mizzoubuckeyeiowa
quote:
Jordan never had a great supporting cast
Posted on 5/4/17 at 3:49 pm to mizzoubuckeyeiowa
quote:Literally anybody else posts this and it's a troll.
Jordan never had a great supporting cast but he made average players champions.
But you're serious
For the 100th time, you have, BY FAR, the worst takes on the MSB.
Posted on 5/4/17 at 3:55 pm to mizzoubuckeyeiowa
quote:
There's a reason Kareem went something like 154-4 in High School and College.
Why are you bringing up high school and college? There's a lot less talent so good players have a greater impact. Kareem was also probably a foot taller than most of the players he played against in high school.
quote:
Jordan never had a great supporting cast but he made average players champions.
Posted on 5/4/17 at 4:04 pm to pvilleguru
On a longer and longer timeline, all that is left of a player is his statistical record. The stories become legends and get discarded, and when we evaluate older players, we use stats. It's honestly the only way. None of us saw, say, Three Finger Brown throw a baseball.
But context is super important. Numbers don't always mean the same thing, and without context, they are virtually meaningless. You need to know a player relative to his league and the style of play or even his home arena (like the narrow boards at the Garden or the huge Polo Grounds).
But I tend to favor black/grey ink stats. How many times did you lead the league in something. How many times were you top 10. How did you, relative to your peers? That cuts down a lot a noise regarding fluctuating scoring averages.
Championships are like extra credit.
But context is super important. Numbers don't always mean the same thing, and without context, they are virtually meaningless. You need to know a player relative to his league and the style of play or even his home arena (like the narrow boards at the Garden or the huge Polo Grounds).
But I tend to favor black/grey ink stats. How many times did you lead the league in something. How many times were you top 10. How did you, relative to your peers? That cuts down a lot a noise regarding fluctuating scoring averages.
Championships are like extra credit.
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