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re: Remember when Israel gave back Gaza?
Posted on 12/28/16 at 3:08 pm to LSUBadger
Posted on 12/28/16 at 3:08 pm to LSUBadger
quote:
Israel won the civil war and has won every armed conflict since then. It is well past time to get over the idea of right of return and start dealing in reality. That reality probably entails a separate Palastinian state, but not necessarily along the lines the Palestinians want
The reality is that no two state solution will work. There will either be a right of return and equal rights or compensation deemed fair by the guys willing to launch rockets and commit suicide.
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Posted on 12/28/16 at 3:12 pm to LSUBadger
There are thousands of Cubans in Miami and South Florida who, if able, would relocate to their homes in Cuba immediately. They should have that right, because they were forced to flee their lands due to political tyranny.
Your other two examples were instances where additional territory was acquired through war. The Arab-Israeli War of 1948 was not the Six-Day War in 1967 where Israel acquired additional territory and the status of those people became disputed.
The people who were expelled from their lands in Israel in 1948 were mostly not combatants in the 1948 war, yet were nonetheless removed from their homes and have not been allowed to return. Those still living, along with their families, should have the right to relocate to these places.
Your other two examples were instances where additional territory was acquired through war. The Arab-Israeli War of 1948 was not the Six-Day War in 1967 where Israel acquired additional territory and the status of those people became disputed.
The people who were expelled from their lands in Israel in 1948 were mostly not combatants in the 1948 war, yet were nonetheless removed from their homes and have not been allowed to return. Those still living, along with their families, should have the right to relocate to these places.
Posted on 12/28/16 at 3:13 pm to MrCarton
quote:
Forever.
Not true. 30 years bad faith possession grants ownership by acquisitive prescription. It's been more than 30 years, Israel won all the wars over it, it's Israel's. If the Palestinians want it, they will have to win a war for it.
Posted on 12/28/16 at 3:14 pm to SCLibertarian
quote:
Even though I personally sympathize with Palestinians, I would hope the US stays out of this conflict in the future. I have no love for Palestinian suicide bombers and I have no love for Likud policies that view civilian deaths as collateral damage. I think Americans are naive about our ability to bring any solution to this conflict, despite our sympathies for one side or another.
Well said.
Posted on 12/28/16 at 3:16 pm to kingbob
quote:
Not true. 30 years bad faith possession grants ownership by acquisitive prescription. It's been more than 30 years, Israel won all the wars over it, it's Israel's. If the Palestinians want it, they will have to win a war for it.
No. If one owns property and makes claim to it, it's his property. if someone takes that property, that's called stealing.
"might makes right" is a cop out.
Posted on 12/28/16 at 3:17 pm to MrCarton
Israel owes nobody anything.
Posted on 12/28/16 at 3:19 pm to MButterfly
quote:
Israel owes nobody anything.
Wow. You're all in on Israel, huh? You probably raise red heifers in your backyard.
Posted on 12/28/16 at 3:19 pm to MButterfly
quote:
Israel owes nobody anything.
Very insightful. Zen even.
Posted on 12/28/16 at 3:22 pm to SCLibertarian
quote:Not only that, but I think we are naive about our ability to make things worse, even if the "Intentions" are to improve the situation.
I think Americans are naive about our ability to bring any solution to this conflict, despite our sympathies for one side or another.
Posted on 12/28/16 at 3:22 pm to SCLibertarian
quote:
The people who were expelled from their lands in Israel in 1948 were mostly not combatants in the 1948 war, yet were nonetheless removed from their homes and have not been allowed to return. Those still living, along with their families, should have the right to relocate to these places.
They lived in a country that was conquered. The only right they have is to ask to return, which Israel has a right to refuse. Wars have consequences.
Posted on 12/28/16 at 3:23 pm to BobBoucher
quote:
They lived in a country that was conquered. The only right they have is to ask to return, which Israel has a right to refuse. Wars have consequences.
And by this logic, Palestinians have the right to attack them with rockets and bombs.
Conquering has consequences?
This post was edited on 12/28/16 at 3:24 pm
Posted on 12/28/16 at 3:27 pm to MrCarton
quote:
"might makes right" is a cop out.
Yet, it is an accurate one. We are not discussing land claims between citizens of the same country, where there are courts and police to settle disputes. If someone moves onto a piece of land, even if they do not believe it is theirs, if they stay there for even a single year without someone giving them notice that it belongs to someone else, they have the right to possess. After 10 years of possessions, as long as they had at least some reason to believe it was theirs and have some sort of claim to it, it's theirs, even if the "true owner" shows up during year 11. Even if they knew all along the land wasn't theirs, but they chose to take it anyways, after 30 years, it's theirs. They become the "true owner" by acquisitive prescription.
As far as "might makes right", it's a shitty system, but it is one that is necessary, or else, when do claims end?
Does Germany have a claim to Kaliningrad?
Does Mexico have a claim to Texas?
Do the Native Americans have claims for their lands East of the Mississippi they lost during the Trail of Tears?
Does England have a claim to the original 13 colonies?
Do the Incans have claims to Peru and Chile?
Does Morocco have a claim to Southern Spain?
What about Italy, do they have a claim to the entire Mediterranean?
Most of the Middle East was once ruled by the Macedonian King Alexander the Great; does Macedonia have a claim to all of that territory?
Without acquisitive prescription and "might makes right" one would open Pandora's Box for land claims by every country.
At the end of the day, what you "own" is what you can defend. In civilized societies, we create organizations to help protect our ownership of things. When we get beyond the reach of these organizations, such as between countries, in the end, the old law rings true. What you own is what you can defend. Israel won and defended their land over and over and over again. If the Palestinians or the rest of the world want it back, they can try and take it. Just like all others who have tried before, they will fail.
Posted on 12/28/16 at 3:29 pm to MrCarton
quote:
And by this logic, Palestinians have the right to attack them with rockets and bombs. Conquering has consequences?
You're spot on. As long as they are prepared for the consequences of taking a knife to a gun fight. Israel could easily slaughter them.
Arabs tried multiple times to retake the land and failed, actually giving up more land in the process. So they all gave up and signed treaties. I doubt this works out well in the end for the Palestinians since they haven't a single tank or airplane.
This post was edited on 12/28/16 at 3:32 pm
Posted on 12/28/16 at 3:32 pm to BobBoucher
quote:
You're spot on. As long as they are prepared for the consequences of trying to do so (it only works out well if you win)
I don't actually think this arrangement works out well for Israel. The Palestinian terrorists have far more to gain, with much less to lose from their actions. Bad balance of power there.
quote:
Arabs tried multiple times to retake the land and failed, actually giving up more land in the process. So they all gave up and signed treaties. I doubt this works out well in the end for the Palestinians since they haven't a single tank or airplane.
They don't need or want tanks or planes. They will go for much softer targets and they will do it indefinitely. This is why 1 state is the only viable solution IMO.
Posted on 12/28/16 at 3:36 pm to MrCarton
I feel like they do have this right and they have to absorb the consequences.
Posted on 12/28/16 at 3:39 pm to kilo
quote:
feel like they do have this right and they have to absorb the consequences.
well I disagree. states don't have rights. but the people who established a state in the region by force certainly have to deal with the consequences. the problem is Americans are now sucked into this liability.
Posted on 12/28/16 at 3:39 pm to MrCarton
quote:
They don't need or want tanks or planes. They will go for much softer targets and they will do it indefinitely. This is why 1 state is the only viable solution IMO.
If Israel can hold a nation state accountable for an attack that state is in deep shite.
If it's Gaza or something like that, Israel could retake and occupy indefinitely eventually expelling all resisting Palestinians.
At the end of the day, the "resistance" will be nothing more than a thorn in the side of Israel that will help them build a stronger defense - something that's actually counter to what Arab naighbors want. But they have all but given up on that land.
Posted on 12/28/16 at 3:44 pm to kingbob
quote:
Does Germany have a claim to Kaliningrad?
Does Mexico have a claim to Texas?
Do the Native Americans have claims for their lands East of the Mississippi they lost during the Trail of Tears?
Does England have a claim to the original 13 colonies?
Do the Incans have claims to Peru and Chile?
Does Morocco have a claim to Southern Spain?
What about Italy, do they have a claim to the entire Mediterranean?
None of these things are people, and thus have no "right" to claim anything.
quote:
Yet, it is an accurate one. We are not discussing land claims between citizens of the same country, where there are courts and police to settle disputes. If someone moves onto a piece of land, even if they do not believe it is theirs, if they stay there for even a single year without someone giving them notice that it belongs to someone else, they have the right to possess. After 10 years of possessions, as long as they had at least some reason to believe it was theirs and have some sort of claim to it, it's theirs, even if the "true owner" shows up during year 11. Even if they knew all along the land wasn't theirs, but they chose to take it anyways, after 30 years, it's theirs. They become the "true owner" by acquisitive prescription.
I'm not sure where you got all of this, but I've consistently said that clear title + claim of ownership = legit ownership. It's really that simple.
I can own a plot my whole life and never visit it. If someone steals that plot and refuses my return, this is a crime. If someone kicks me off my land and refuses my return this is a crime. If this happened to you, you would believe you were wronged.
"might makes right" also means that terrorists are right in killing innocent people in order to get what they want.
Posted on 12/28/16 at 3:47 pm to BobBoucher
quote:
If it's Gaza or something like that, Israel could retake and occupy indefinitely eventually expelling all resisting Palestinians.
At the end of the day, the "resistance" will be nothing more than a thorn in the side of Israel that will help them build a stronger defense - something that's actually counter to what Arab naighbors want. But they have all but given up on that land.
I disagree entirely. Terrorism doesn't make Israel stronger. I also don't think their arab nations ever cared about this land as much as they cared about an expanding foreign nation springing up overnight.
O want to clarify that the I believe the state of Israel uses terrorism as an excuse to steal land from Palestinians or arab Israelis, but while this seems like a net benefit to the state, it is in fact damaging in the long term. Israel needs to simply cease the settlements and begin the process of legal reform to ensure equal rights and protections under the law, which they certainly do not have now. In 2 generations this problem will be largely resolved if state leaders work hard to achieve these two things.
This post was edited on 12/28/16 at 4:07 pm
Posted on 12/28/16 at 3:53 pm to HeauxBeaux
quote:
They left willingly. They believed the neighboring Arab countries were going to drive the Jews into the Mediterranean. They gambled and lost
They left willingly to flee conflict. Their lands were basically stolen by Europeans. They were farmers, carpenters, and not soldiers. The birth of "Israel" meant the displacement of over 750,000 Palestinians who are not allowed to return to their homes, even 70 years after.
I know because this happened to my family. You assholes really think that nearly a million Palestinians left their homes because they were making the way clear for a foreign army (of carpenters, farmers, and the like) to "wipe out Jews?"
This is why the Israel/Palestine situation is so misunderstood - history is twisted and people are brainwashed.
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