re: if women can abort their children, why can't men opt out of parenthood?

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I disagree with all of this. I believe the number of women who have children specifically for the child support from the father is basically inconsequential to the total number of cases where this opt out would apply. More importantly, this opt out would do little of consequence to discourage these women who are in it for the money as they'll still get government benefits. It would also drive more women to chasing an abortion, which is no solution I can support.

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I think we've tried the present approach of:

1) splitting up families instead of sharing custody (splitting is necessary to impose child support and this is financially profitable for the state because of federal matching monies) and
2) providing additional support to women with children(WIC etc).

What we've seen is these things have increased the rates of single parent families - leading to bad outcomes. And have increased the rates of child poverty - obviously an undesirable outcome.

Maybe it is time to consider removing government intervention from something as important as having children? Personal responsibility isn't the answer to every problem, but government programs which reduce personal consequences have apparently dramatically grown our social problems.

It probably will. Because then people will be more interested in either not having sex with people they don't want to have children with - or more fastidious about using proper birth control.

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It probably will. Because then people will be more interested in either not having sex with people they don't want to have children with - or more fastidious about using proper birth control.

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Men already have most of the chips stacked against them with an unwanted pregnancy, yet they're still careless and get women pregnant all the time. Removing their current deterrent will offset any gains made by women that are now more responsible. You've also shifted all responsibility of a pregnancy to the woman. Doesn't seem very equitable.

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Your idea of banning "convenience" abortions is nonsense because that will NEVER happen. That's like me saying "get rid of welfare" when you suggest more people will become dependent on the state.

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I've argued against the idea of opting out without changing abortion laws too. To argue this opt out is equitable is to argue that signing away your financial responsibility is just as quick and easy as the decision to abort a child. Think about that for a minute.

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As a result of that a man can't have equal reproductive rights. I don't see any way around that really.

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Exactly. Once a woman is pregnant, the man no longer has any rights. He has plenty of say so before hand - as does the woman - but at that point, he's fricked. There is no practical way to level the playing field in any capacity, even if abortions are legal.

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a woman shouldn't be solely responsible for "her body"?

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Isn't that your problem in the OP? They've got all the control here. What does this do to stop abortions when the father wants to keep the child? Isn't that your issue in the OP too?

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As a result of that a man can't have equal reproductive rights. I don't see any way around that really.


Exactly. Once a woman is pregnant, the man no longer has any rights. He has plenty of say so before hand - as does the woman - but at that point, he's fricked. There is no practical way to level the playing field in any capacity, even if abortions are legal.

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No. You seem to have deliberately ignored the point of my rebuttal.

You seemed to argue that all responsibility would shift to the woman. But, because of abortion, she has all the rights at that point. The rights are equal for both partners if they decide to have sex. But the rights shift to the woman during pregnancy. With those sole rights comes the possibility of sole responsibility.

This is sort of an example of a just system. With responsibilities come rights. Without equal rights responsibilities can not be justly imposed, they have to be assumed voluntarily to be effective.

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you're moving the goalposts

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No, no I'm not. That is entirely relevant to the equity of the solution. If you have to have a medical procedure done to end a child's life in order to opt out, or you've got to carry a child to term and then give it up for adoption to opt out, and a man has to simply sign a piece of paper, that is SIGNIFICANTLY different. I'm not sure how you can argue otherwise.

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My body, my choice.

Should go both ways, eh?

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Then keep your sperm to yourself.

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if women can abort their children, why can't men opt out of parenthood?

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I've been saying that for the longest time. What about equality? What about men's rights?