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re: What happens when we die?
Posted on 8/31/16 at 12:44 pm to AUveritas
Posted on 8/31/16 at 12:44 pm to AUveritas
quote:
I believe the argument would be something like eventually, you would have to arrive at an uncaused first cause.
That's special pleading/defining a deity into existence.
This post was edited on 8/31/16 at 12:45 pm
1
Posted on 8/31/16 at 12:44 pm to ctiger69
That's not what this thread is about, the only reason this thread has lasted so long is because it hasn't become a pissing match over religion. If he doesn't believe then that's his belief and like I said should be respected. Just because he doesn't believe in God doesn't mean he can't have his own thoughts in what happens after the great journey.
This post was edited on 8/31/16 at 12:47 pm
Posted on 8/31/16 at 12:45 pm to ctiger69
quote:
ctiger69
You're really trying your best to frick up this thread, aren't you?
Posted on 8/31/16 at 12:47 pm to brooksbabino
quote:
That's special pleading/defining a deity into existence.
Not at all. You don't have to say the uncaused first cause is any type of deity. Most Christians would say it is, but you could call it Fred if you'd like.
Posted on 8/31/16 at 12:48 pm to GeauxTigerTM
The greatest mystery the universe offers is not life but size. Size encompasses life. The child, who is most at home with wonder, says: Daddy, what is above the sky? And the father says: The darkness of space. The child: What is beyond space? The father: The galaxy. The child: Beyond the galaxy? The father: Another galaxy. The child: Beyond the other galaxies? The father: No one knows.
Size defeats us. For the fish, the lake in which he lives is the universe. What does the fish think when he is jerked up by the mouth through the silver limits of existence and into a new universe where the air drowns him and the light is blue madness? Where huge bipeds with no gills stuff it into a suffocating box abd cover it with wet weeds to die?
Or one might take the tip of the pencil and magnify it. One reaches the point where a stunning realization strikes home: The pencil tip is not solid; it is composed of atoms which whirl and revolve like a trillion demon planets. What seems solid to us is actually only a loose net held together by gravity. Viewed at their actual size, the distances between these atoms might become league, gulfs, aeons. The atoms themselves are composed of nuclei and revolving protons and electrons. One may step down further to subatomic particles. And then to what? Tachyons? Nothing? Of course not. Everything in the universe denies nothing; to suggest an ending is the one absurdity.
If you fell outward to the limit of the universe, would you find a board fence and signs reading DEAD END? No. You might find something hard and rounded, as the chick must see the egg from the inside. And if you should peck through the shell (or find a door), what great and torrential light might shine through your opening at the end of space? Might you look through and discover our entire universe is but part of one atom on a blade of grass? Might you be forced to think that by burning a twig you incinerate an eternity of eternities? That existence rises not to one infinite but to an infinity of them?
Size defeats us. For the fish, the lake in which he lives is the universe. What does the fish think when he is jerked up by the mouth through the silver limits of existence and into a new universe where the air drowns him and the light is blue madness? Where huge bipeds with no gills stuff it into a suffocating box abd cover it with wet weeds to die?
Or one might take the tip of the pencil and magnify it. One reaches the point where a stunning realization strikes home: The pencil tip is not solid; it is composed of atoms which whirl and revolve like a trillion demon planets. What seems solid to us is actually only a loose net held together by gravity. Viewed at their actual size, the distances between these atoms might become league, gulfs, aeons. The atoms themselves are composed of nuclei and revolving protons and electrons. One may step down further to subatomic particles. And then to what? Tachyons? Nothing? Of course not. Everything in the universe denies nothing; to suggest an ending is the one absurdity.
If you fell outward to the limit of the universe, would you find a board fence and signs reading DEAD END? No. You might find something hard and rounded, as the chick must see the egg from the inside. And if you should peck through the shell (or find a door), what great and torrential light might shine through your opening at the end of space? Might you look through and discover our entire universe is but part of one atom on a blade of grass? Might you be forced to think that by burning a twig you incinerate an eternity of eternities? That existence rises not to one infinite but to an infinity of them?
Posted on 8/31/16 at 12:49 pm to rbWarEagle
quote:
rbWarEagle
Nobody is talking to you.
Posted on 8/31/16 at 12:52 pm to AUveritas
quote:
Not at all. You don't have to say the uncaused first cause is any type of deity. Most Christians would say it is, but you could call it Fred if you'd like.
Exactly! It's special pleading and fallacious because you can literally insert whatever you want as an "uncaused cause". It offers zero explanatory power and actually further complicates and convolutes the problem you are trying to solve.
Posted on 8/31/16 at 12:53 pm to Heathens
LINK
Interesting read that is mainly on topic
Interesting read that is mainly on topic
quote:
The Meaning of Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon
quote:
So what is the meaning of Dark Side of the Moon?
Dark Side of the Moon is a concept album that discusses the philosophical and physical ideas that can lead to a person's insanity, and ultimately an unfulfilled life.
The album is a cautionary tale in two parts, the first half describes living a life that goes unfulfilled. This part of the album consists of the following tracks:
Speak To Me/Breathe
On The Run
Time/Breathe Reprise
Great Gig In The Sky
The second half of the album consists of individual songs about different ideas and concepts that are detrimental to society and can lead to madness. These songs are:
Money
Us and Them
A color You Like
Brain Damage
Eclipse
The philosophical ideas in the second half of the album are a sort of madness in their own right. They are also the root causes to the problem mentioned in the first half of the album that focuses on living an unfulfilled life.
quote:
Great Gig in the Sky
Another mostly instrumental song, Great Gig in the Sky, has some recorded voices and a lady singer that wails on the song's two chord refrain. The voices in Great Gig in the Sky talk about death and not being afraid of dieing, which is ultimately what this song is about, death.
People are either afraid of dieing or they're not, and that would appear to be the message trying to be conveyed in this song. The first person to speak on this song says he is not afraid of dieing, and it sounds convincing. In the second half of the song, a lady says, "I was never frightened of dieing." This is said very quietly and with less confidence the person who said it at the beginning of the song.
The two interviews show the contrasting views on death between people. The dialogue is transitions to the wailing, which at times sounds powerful and beautiful (not afraid of dieing) and other times it sounds fearful and anxiety driven (afraid of dieing). Or simply put: you are, or you are not afraid of dieing. Both ideas seem to be conveyed by the dialogue and the wailing vocals.
Posted on 8/31/16 at 12:58 pm to brooksbabino
quote:
Exactly! It's special pleading and fallacious because you can literally insert whatever you want as an "uncaused cause". It offers zero explanatory power and actually further complicates and convolutes the problem you are trying to solve.
I disagree. It's a matter of simple logic. It doesn't have to further explain anything on its face. Proverbially, it simply is what it is. Logically, you have to ultimately arrive at an uncaused first cause. I think the animus towards the argument is only because it confounds science's naturalistic biases.
Posted on 8/31/16 at 1:05 pm to AUveritas
quote:
I disagree. It's a matter of simple logic. It doesn't have to further explain anything on its face. Proverbially, it simply is what it is. Logically, you have to ultimately arrive at an uncaused first cause. I think the animus towards the argument is only because it confounds science's naturalistic biases.
How so? You are familiar with the infinite regress problem, right? If everything has a cause then a prime mover would have been caused by a more powerful and complex mover. Then because it must have had a cause, another more powerful and complex mover must have been before that - and so on and so on... Not to mention the "time" problem. How would a prime mover move something or cause a sequence of events before the big bang? Before the big bang (if we are following the theory - even though it is plausible that the universe is eternal which by definition wouldn't require a prime mover) time by definition didn't exist. Therefore cause and effect are logically incoherent and impossible. The only way around it is by resorting to some form of special pleading and the most common form of special pleading I've heard of is the uncaused cause. You keep saying it's logical but you haven't explained why it is. You are simply asserting.
Posted on 8/31/16 at 1:10 pm to Heathens
For those who believe in a creator (as I do), you have to ask the question why have we been created. Granted we can't know the mind of God, but I don't think He would create us to perform some ambiguous test of how many 'good' points you can collect while you are on earth. I think the Bible provides the best answer as to why we have been created and it's for us to find complete and total joy in Him alone and nothing else.
That is what our challenge in this life is. If we are going to live for eternity, then we must be completely satisfied in Him and not in the world or anything we can put before Him. He gives us the freedom to choose Him or reject Him in this life so that we are not forced to love him for eternity. If we had no choice, we would be robots. He has created the world in the one and only way that we could ever have true free will. He has given us signs of His presence through natural revelation (think about the precise nature of the physical universe and its laws) as well as spiritual revelation through scripture and Christ. He has given us enough knowledge of Himself to desire Him if we want to and enough obscurity that we can reject Him if we choose to.
Downplay or minimize the impact of the question of why we are here all you want, but it is the fundamental question in each of our lives and how you answer it should drive everything that you do in your life.
That is what our challenge in this life is. If we are going to live for eternity, then we must be completely satisfied in Him and not in the world or anything we can put before Him. He gives us the freedom to choose Him or reject Him in this life so that we are not forced to love him for eternity. If we had no choice, we would be robots. He has created the world in the one and only way that we could ever have true free will. He has given us signs of His presence through natural revelation (think about the precise nature of the physical universe and its laws) as well as spiritual revelation through scripture and Christ. He has given us enough knowledge of Himself to desire Him if we want to and enough obscurity that we can reject Him if we choose to.
Downplay or minimize the impact of the question of why we are here all you want, but it is the fundamental question in each of our lives and how you answer it should drive everything that you do in your life.
This post was edited on 8/31/16 at 2:15 pm
Posted on 8/31/16 at 1:13 pm to brooksbabino
quote:
How so? You are familiar with the infinite regress problem, right? If everything has a cause then a prime mover would have been caused by a more powerful and complex mover. Then because it must have had a cause, another more powerful and complex mover must have been before that - and so on and so on... Not to mention the "time" problem. How would a prime mover move something or cause a sequence of events before the big bang? Before the big bang (if we are following the theory - even though it is plausible that the universe is eternal which by definition wouldn't require a prime mover) time by definition didn't exist. Therefore cause and effect are logically incoherent and impossible. The only way around it is by resorting to some form of special pleading and the most common form of special pleading I've heard of is the uncaused cause. You keep saying it's logical but you haven't explained why it is. You are simply asserting.
The uncaused first cause would, by definition, have to be transcendent of time and be intelligent so as to have (for lack of a better term) stepped out of timelessness at a specific moment. Once again, I think the issue all boils down to the fact that such a prime mover can't be explained by the biases of modern science that everything must have a natural explanation. A bias which can't be scientifically confirmed fwiw.
This post was edited on 8/31/16 at 1:15 pm
Posted on 8/31/16 at 1:16 pm to Heathens
What I believe happens when we die is based on Scripture, not on what I think, feel or hope may happen.
"To summarize: the Christian faith is that when we die, our bodies and souls are separated; our souls “rest from their labors” with Jesus as we await the resurrection. Then the dead will rise and the living will be transformed, and we will all live in resurrected, glorified bodies (like Jesus’ body) on a new earth under a new heavens."
LINK to longer explanation
"To summarize: the Christian faith is that when we die, our bodies and souls are separated; our souls “rest from their labors” with Jesus as we await the resurrection. Then the dead will rise and the living will be transformed, and we will all live in resurrected, glorified bodies (like Jesus’ body) on a new earth under a new heavens."
LINK to longer explanation
Posted on 8/31/16 at 1:16 pm to Heathens
Just stumbled across this. Have read some similar stuff in the past. Video in link.
One of the secrets is – our body is a lens – a filter.
It experiences a specific physical reality only – which in and by itself is not actually there – it is an illusion.
There is no objective reality out there! We create it on the spot in our head. It is like only seeing the color red in a picture that contains a myriad of other colors and then say: I see a red building – it’s all red!
Possibly we only see one part in a million of the Total Reality that surrounds us.
This one millionth part we call Physical Reality.
All other realities are filtered out by our awareness system.
We are surrounded by all these other realities, but they are not experienced or noticed by human beings. We do not even suspect that they are there! What a surprise…
“In 1990, I began the first new research in the United States in over twenty years on the effect of psychedelic, or hallucinogenic, drugs on humans.
During the project’s five years, I administered approximately four hundred doses of DMT to sixty human volunteers. This research took place at the University if New Mexico’s School of Medicine in Albuquerque, where I was tenured Associate Professor of Psychiatry.
I was drawn to DMT because of its presence in all of our bodies. I believed the source of this DMT was the mysterious pineal gland, a tiny organ situated in the center of our brains. Modern medicine knows little about this gland’s role, but it has a rich metaphysical history. Descartes, for example, believed the pineal was the ‘seat of the soul’ and both Western and Eastern mystical traditions place our highest spiritual center within its confines.”
Rick Strassman, M. D.
DMT: The Spirit Molecule
LINK
One of the secrets is – our body is a lens – a filter.
It experiences a specific physical reality only – which in and by itself is not actually there – it is an illusion.
There is no objective reality out there! We create it on the spot in our head. It is like only seeing the color red in a picture that contains a myriad of other colors and then say: I see a red building – it’s all red!
Possibly we only see one part in a million of the Total Reality that surrounds us.
This one millionth part we call Physical Reality.
All other realities are filtered out by our awareness system.
We are surrounded by all these other realities, but they are not experienced or noticed by human beings. We do not even suspect that they are there! What a surprise…
“In 1990, I began the first new research in the United States in over twenty years on the effect of psychedelic, or hallucinogenic, drugs on humans.
During the project’s five years, I administered approximately four hundred doses of DMT to sixty human volunteers. This research took place at the University if New Mexico’s School of Medicine in Albuquerque, where I was tenured Associate Professor of Psychiatry.
I was drawn to DMT because of its presence in all of our bodies. I believed the source of this DMT was the mysterious pineal gland, a tiny organ situated in the center of our brains. Modern medicine knows little about this gland’s role, but it has a rich metaphysical history. Descartes, for example, believed the pineal was the ‘seat of the soul’ and both Western and Eastern mystical traditions place our highest spiritual center within its confines.”
Rick Strassman, M. D.
DMT: The Spirit Molecule
LINK
Posted on 8/31/16 at 1:18 pm to Langland
What book is that from?
Posted on 8/31/16 at 1:24 pm to im4LSU
quote:
Why they kill my dawg and man I miss my Uncle Charles y'all
Nice
Posted on 8/31/16 at 1:29 pm to Heathens
Posted on 8/31/16 at 1:32 pm to Cactus Tiger
quote:
One of the secrets is – our body is a lens – a filter. It experiences a specific physical reality only – which in and by itself is not actually there – it is an illusion. There is no objective reality out there! We create it on the spot in our head. It is like only seeing the color red in a picture that contains a myriad of other colors and then say: I see a red building – it’s all red! Possibly we only see one part in a million of the Total Reality that surrounds us.
Posted on 8/31/16 at 1:32 pm to AUveritas
quote:
The uncaused first cause would, by definition, have to be transcendent of time and be intelligent so as to have (for lack of a better term) stepped out of timelessness at a specific moment. Once again, I think the issue all boils down to the fact that such a prime mover can't be explained by the biases of modern science that everything must have a natural explanation. A bias which can't be scientifically confirmed fwiw.
I understand the argument but this is the special pleading part in order to get out of the logical inconsistency of cause and effect. You are defining a "special case" that is untouchable by logic and science and literally can't be debated. Not to mention if the universe turns out to be eternal the uncaused cause argument becomes absurd and impossible by definition. Modern science is bound by the physical reality because it's the only reality that has been demonstrated to actually exist at the moment. If the evidence tilts in your favor I'd be happy to concede but if you read any theoretical physics or cosmology regarding the topic the uncaused cause argument quickly becomes incoherent.
This is probably where we will simply disagree and move on. I am not trying to change anyone's mind. Just trying to foster constructive conversation.
Posted on 8/31/16 at 1:37 pm to Cactus Tiger
Third eye talk. Interesting.
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