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GoT: Do you think Westeros is 'destined' for some fate? (spoilers)
Posted on 3/21/16 at 8:33 am
Posted on 3/21/16 at 8:33 am
Overall the message so far has been that whatever the characters think is "supposed to be" is seldom the way that things actually are (Ned, Robb and Oberyn's deaths come to mind), and that survival and accomplishment are divorced from any ethical considerations. However, some of the characters still seem destined to accomplish great things (Dany, Bran, Brienne to a lesser extent, Jon for sure if he gets resurrected) despite their facing pretty poor odds for survival. Do you think the ultimate message of GoT will be that some characters are, in fact, destined for greatness? Or will the story end with the triumph of those who are better at playing the game or winning wars, regardless of their ethics (Freys, White Walkers, Tyrells, Boltons)?
Posted on 3/21/16 at 8:35 am to gorillacoco
I think the "destiny" is the title. I think it is "A Song of Ice and Fire."
I think that will be embodied by a single person, a major character, in fact.
I think that will be embodied by a single person, a major character, in fact.
Posted on 3/21/16 at 8:38 am to gorillacoco
Dany comes up with the bright idea to travel east to get west. Hoping to find a quicker way to westeros. Discovers a new land filled with a primitive people. Tyrion and Dany bring democracy to this new land.
after a 250 year winter, democracy is brought back to the middlewest by the new super power.
after a 250 year winter, democracy is brought back to the middlewest by the new super power.
Posted on 3/21/16 at 8:40 am to gorillacoco
In any conventional story, the protagonist(s) is/are destined for some end. Everything they do takes them one step closer to it.
If, for some reason, the Boltons, Freys, White Walkers, etc. "win" in Game of Thrones, and they are the ones left standing at the end, then you have to question whether the story was ever about anyone else other than them.
And if it was, then why?
It would be exceptionally weak storytelling if, somehow, the antagonists or ancillary characters are left standing at the end, with little to no development into them over the course of many books.
I think ultimately, despite the many twists and turns and bad things happening to good characters, Martin will follow convention and have one or more of his main protagonists finish the series on top.
If, for some reason, the Boltons, Freys, White Walkers, etc. "win" in Game of Thrones, and they are the ones left standing at the end, then you have to question whether the story was ever about anyone else other than them.
And if it was, then why?
It would be exceptionally weak storytelling if, somehow, the antagonists or ancillary characters are left standing at the end, with little to no development into them over the course of many books.
I think ultimately, despite the many twists and turns and bad things happening to good characters, Martin will follow convention and have one or more of his main protagonists finish the series on top.
Posted on 3/21/16 at 8:44 am to SpqrTiger
One or two of the main characters don't have to end up ruling to determine the fate of Westeros. It would seem very Martin for the death of one to end the series in an interesting way.
Posted on 3/21/16 at 8:57 am to molsusports
quote:
One or two of the main characters don't have to end up ruling to determine the fate of Westeros. It would seem very Martin for the death of one to end the series in an interesting way.
Of course. I'm just saying what I think will happen.
The reason why I think we will see one or more of the protagonists winning... that is, the "good" guys - Jon, Dany and/or pals, is because at the end of the day, Martin is a storyteller. A good one, too. He can have lots of bad things happen along the way to good people, and have things turn out the way that you don't expect. He can also convince you that his "good" characters are not as good as you might think, and that the "bad" ones are not as bad as you think, either.
But the central fact remains that there has to be payoff in some way for the time spent with certain characters. If there is virtually no time spent on the White Walkers, and they end up "winning," then that's not an act of contrarian genius, it's bad storytelling. It would be a waste of everyone's time. I don't think Martin wants to do that. He can take little detours along the way into "dirtying" up his goods and "cleaning" up his bads, but like most authors, the characters with the most time on the page are the ones that have to be there at the end. If, say, Victarion Greyjoy ends up king of Westeros... that would just be a shitty series, not genius.
Not because Victarion is a "bad guy" or "sort of bad"... because we just don't know who he is. Same for the White Walkers. Same for the Boltons (we know a little about Ramsay, I acknowledge that... but not enough).
Posted on 3/21/16 at 9:01 am to gorillacoco
quote:
Overall the message so far has been that whatever the characters think is "supposed to be" is seldom the way that things actually are
well i just finished a re-watch of season 5 and season 5 is making it more "normal" in its structure. i think that's why people had so many issues with it. now i know the books are different, so i don't know what the case is for the books (although i know lots of people thought the last books was shite)
quote:
Do you think the ultimate message of GoT will be that some characters are, in fact, destined for greatness?
well GRRM, i believe, has said that the world in this series is not your "good v. evil" paradigm so i'm not sure how they deal with the "chosen" people that seem to have developed. the problem with killing some characters is that it kills certain locations. killing danny means no more slaver's bay. killing jon means no more wall. THAT is a bigger issue, imho
tyrian and brienne could be killed without losing geographical perspective, though
Posted on 3/21/16 at 9:28 am to gorillacoco
quote:
Do you think Westeros is 'destined' for some fate?
Limbo, unless that fat, lazy bitch gets busy writing.
Posted on 3/21/16 at 9:38 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
although i know lots of people thought the last books was shite
The last book is alright but just a massive step back from the other 4. The best part of the book is the north, which a lot is left out of last season, however last season ended further on the time line. So you deal with reading worthless Dany chapters waiting to get back the north. Right when the north starts popping off, the book ends.
This post was edited on 3/21/16 at 9:38 am
Posted on 3/21/16 at 9:39 am to Dire Wolf
quote:
worthless Dany chapters
after re-watching season 5 and all my hatred of danny, i don't know if i can suck it up and read the books and deal with her shite
Posted on 3/21/16 at 9:52 am to SpqrTiger
With all the supernatural elements experiencing a reawakening, its probably safe to assume the game is going to either be wiped out or changed in a fundamental way that there will not be one clear winner or hero destined for greatness.
Posted on 3/21/16 at 9:59 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
after re-watching season 5 and all my hatred of danny, i don't know if i can suck it up and read the books and deal with her shite
her chapters aren't bad in the first three books, still the worst POV character but some are pretty enjoyable. Plus you get a lot of Targ background.
Book stuff below peoples don't read. Should spoil anything but know how you people get.
Pretty big spoilers/theory/book detail on Dany's fate
I really like the idea that dany is doomed to fail. She sucks and listens to her gut too much. We are hoping Tyrion will straighten her out. He will return to westros and no one will care because he is a imp. Both will end up tragically failing.
This post was edited on 3/21/16 at 10:02 am
Posted on 3/21/16 at 10:01 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
i don't know if i can suck it up and read the books and deal with her shite
I've already decided if I ever re-read the novels, I will skip all Dany chapters. Sad, but true.
Posted on 3/21/16 at 11:09 am to Dire Wolf
But the show and book will have the same ending. Since Aegon and Quentyn aren't in the show how will The Martells side against Dany?
Posted on 3/21/16 at 11:14 am to dawgfan24348
quote:
But the show and book will have the same ending. Since Aegon and Quentyn aren't in the show how will The Martells side against Dany?
Dany is arrogant. She could do the bend the knee or burn BS and Dorne will side with the targ in the North who has proven to be more diplomatic.
Posted on 3/21/16 at 11:29 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
after re-watching season 5 and all my hatred of danny, i don't know if i can suck it up and read the books and deal with her shite
I wonder where her fall from grace would rank with other literary/cinematic characters. Granted I've only ever watched the show, but she went from someone I was really intrigued with and someone I pulled for to approaching Lori from TWD status for me.
I just despise everything about her and her terribly boring storyline.
Posted on 3/21/16 at 11:35 am to Dire Wolf
quote:
Plus you get a lot of Targ background.
This is all the Dany chapters are good for. You miss a lot of Targaryen background if you don't read them, which is important for the grand scheme. If it wasn't for that, you could just skip them.
Posted on 3/21/16 at 11:39 am to dawgfan24348
about your post (which needs warnings)
*SPOILERS BELOW*
the blu ray for season 5 has, i believe, a history of the blackfire rebellion, which means Aemon, or some version of that characters, may be revealed in season 6. i think they're establishing the blackfire rebellion to create the "hidden targaryan" storyline
***SPOILERS OVER
*SPOILERS BELOW*
the blu ray for season 5 has, i believe, a history of the blackfire rebellion, which means Aemon, or some version of that characters, may be revealed in season 6. i think they're establishing the blackfire rebellion to create the "hidden targaryan" storyline
***SPOILERS OVER
Posted on 3/21/16 at 11:40 am to SlowFlowPro
The hidden targaryan is the worst kept secret on the show. It was all but hinted at in season 1 and made even more obvious if you did a rewatch
Posted on 3/21/16 at 1:01 pm to VermilionTiger
quote:
The hidden targaryan is the worst kept secret on the show. It was all but hinted at in season 1 and made even more obvious if you did a rewatch
link ?
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