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Why do people think "unproven" means so much
Posted on 11/25/15 at 4:49 pm
Posted on 11/25/15 at 4:49 pm
regarding Tom Herman, Houston Coach
I still do not understand why people keep saying things like this. You are hiring a guy who you think has the potential to be great at the position. Sometimes the record he has is not as important as what he did with the limited talent he had available to him.
Take this guy for example:
Mid-Atlantic Conference- 1 season
9-2 record, won Conference Championship
Big Ten Conference, 5 seasons (34-24-1 overall)
6-5-1 5th in Conference, lost bowl game
6-6 5th in Conference, lost bowl game
7-5 6th in Conference, lost bowl game
6-6 6th in Conference, no bowl game
9-2 Tied, 2nd in Conference, did not coach bowl game
What jumps out at you on this list of accomplishments?
quote:
WPBTiger
quote:
Unproven at LSU's level.
I still do not understand why people keep saying things like this. You are hiring a guy who you think has the potential to be great at the position. Sometimes the record he has is not as important as what he did with the limited talent he had available to him.
Take this guy for example:
Mid-Atlantic Conference- 1 season
9-2 record, won Conference Championship
Big Ten Conference, 5 seasons (34-24-1 overall)
6-5-1 5th in Conference, lost bowl game
6-6 5th in Conference, lost bowl game
7-5 6th in Conference, lost bowl game
6-6 6th in Conference, no bowl game
9-2 Tied, 2nd in Conference, did not coach bowl game
What jumps out at you on this list of accomplishments?
Posted on 11/25/15 at 4:50 pm to jonanthans
Unproven is a legitimate concern.
Muschamp and Gus were supposed to be home runs. How'd that turn out.
Muschamp and Gus were supposed to be home runs. How'd that turn out.
Posted on 11/25/15 at 4:51 pm to jonanthans
Coaching, recruiting and having success at a big time conference and decent program.
Posted on 11/25/15 at 4:54 pm to jonanthans
small school coaches are just a riskier higher as they are pretty much a 50/50 whether or not they will work
they could be the next Urban Meyer or they could be the next Derek Dooley
they could be the next Urban Meyer or they could be the next Derek Dooley
Posted on 11/25/15 at 4:55 pm to Broseph Barksdale
quote:
Broseph Barksdale
quote:
Unproven is a legitimate concern.
But why? We recruit high-school kids that have never played at the level they are about to be competing at..we are recruiting them on potential, what we think they will be..Why would it be any different with Coaches?
This post was edited on 11/25/15 at 4:56 pm
Posted on 11/25/15 at 4:57 pm to jonanthans
quote:
We recruit high-school kids that have never played at the level they are about to be competing at..we are recruiting them on potential, what we think they will be..Why would it be any different with Coaches?
what an utterly retarded comparison
Posted on 11/25/15 at 4:58 pm to Salmon
quote:
Salmon
quote:
what an utterly retarded comparison
Why is that utterly retarded? Its easy to slam someones opinion, instead why not explain yourself..
Posted on 11/25/15 at 5:00 pm to jonanthans
well, for one, we generally recruit more than 1 player for each position, so if one doesn't work out, we always have backup options for free
its not always easy and economical to just replace coaches like you can players
its not always easy and economical to just replace coaches like you can players
Posted on 11/25/15 at 5:02 pm to Salmon
quote:
Salmon
quote:
well, for one, we generally recruit more than 1 player for each position, so if one doesn't work out, we always have backup options for free its not always easy and economical to just replace coaches like you can players
Ok, you have a point there, but Coaching being what it is (no backups), at some point the new wave of coaching talent has to be given the opportunity to show what they have. Otherwise, we are looking at candidates all well over 60 years old and set in their ways.
This post was edited on 11/25/15 at 5:05 pm
Posted on 11/25/15 at 5:14 pm to jonanthans
Sometimes ...these unproven guys work out great!... sometimes...and then they go to the NFL !!! or their Alma Mater!!
Posted on 11/25/15 at 5:17 pm to jonanthans
Two things
1) The LSU HC job of 2000, IS NOT similar to the LSU job of 2016, other than they both pertain to head coaching at LSU. We are in vastly different places now.
2) This isn't even the same thing as what you are saying. Remove his entire experience from Michigan St and look ONLY at his 9-2 record at Toledo. That's basically want people for LSU? Do LSU fans want a guy testing his wings for the first time at a big program like?
That's essentially Gus Malzahn. Oh, he flapped his wings at Auburn alright. He surpised everybody year one, but now he is 8-5 in 2014 and currently 6-5 in 2015.
I'd rather not be a guy's test run.
1) The LSU HC job of 2000, IS NOT similar to the LSU job of 2016, other than they both pertain to head coaching at LSU. We are in vastly different places now.
2) This isn't even the same thing as what you are saying. Remove his entire experience from Michigan St and look ONLY at his 9-2 record at Toledo. That's basically want people for LSU? Do LSU fans want a guy testing his wings for the first time at a big program like?
That's essentially Gus Malzahn. Oh, he flapped his wings at Auburn alright. He surpised everybody year one, but now he is 8-5 in 2014 and currently 6-5 in 2015.
I'd rather not be a guy's test run.
This post was edited on 11/25/15 at 5:19 pm
Posted on 11/25/15 at 5:23 pm to Datbayoubengal
quote:
2) This isn't even the same thing as what you are saying. Remove his entire experience from Michigan St and look ONLY at his 9-2 record at Toledo. That's basically want people for LSU? Do LSU fans want a guy testing his wings for the first time at a big program like?
I never said remove his entire time at MSU..I asked what jumps out at you from his coaching resume'? Nothing. Nothing from his 6-year coaching record jumped out at anyone. It was the way his teams played that got people interested in him.
Posted on 11/25/15 at 5:24 pm to jonanthans
quote:
What jumps out at you on this list of accomplishments?
What stands out is what's missing from your misleading post like 5 years as DC at Michigan state. 2 years as DB coach for the Houston Oilers and 4 years as DC for the Cleveland Browns. Oh and the fact that 2 NFL franchises, the Colts and Giants had interest in him as well.
Herman may be the next big thing and I wouldn't been mad if that's who LSU hired but if he's got a high ceiling, he's got a low floor as well.
Also where LSU is as a program now vs where we were in 1999 is very different.
This post was edited on 11/25/15 at 5:26 pm
Posted on 11/25/15 at 5:31 pm to H-Town Tiger
quote:
H-Town Tiger
quote:
What stands out is what's missing from your misleading post like 5 years as DC at Michigan state. 2 years as DB coach for the Houston Oilers and 4 years as DC for the Cleveland Browns.
That's not misleading at all, its the exact point of my argument. He had all the experience that you just posted, and yet in 5 seasons he couldn't even win the conference. He lost all 3 bowl games he coached in. So it wasn't what he had done record-wise, it was what people seen in his coaching potential. That's why teams were after him.
Tom Herman has many accomplishments as well. And he has also learned under Mack Brown and Urban Meyer. He has set records at every place he has been.
Some program is going to give this guy a chance to coach at a big-time program, and if he continues to succeed at the rate he has, a ton of programs are going to be kicking themselves for not giving him serious consideration.
Posted on 11/25/15 at 5:45 pm to jonanthans
quote:
That's not misleading at all, its the exact point of my argument. He had all the experience that you just posted, and yet in 5 seasons he couldn't even win the conference. He lost all 3 bowl games he coached in. So it wasn't what he had done record-wise, it was what people seen in his coaching potential. That's why teams were after him.
It is very misleading, you are now talking about wins and losses, bowl record and conference titles not to mention taking things out of context. That is not the issue with Herman, it is inexperience. Saban as an assistant in both college and the pros. for longer before even getting a job like Toledo and After his one year at Toledo he spent 4 years as DC in the NFL before getting a mid-level P5 level team in MSU and then was there for 5 years (btw they were hit hard with probation that;s my one of his mentions George Perles was let go) before coming to LSU. And again LSU was in a much different spot in 1999 than we are now.
quote:
Tom Herman has many accomplishments as well. And he has also learned under Mack Brown and Urban Meyer. He has set records at every place he has been.
Some program is going to give this guy a chance to coach at a big-time program, and if he continues to succeed at the rate he has, a ton of programs are going to be kicking themselves for not giving him serious consideration.
He does just not enough to be given a big job like LSU. Sure he may go on to be the next big thing and again I wouldn't be mad if that's who we wound up with. But there are plenty of coaches with as good or better resumes that have flamed out.
There is zero chance Jimbo Fisher flames out. Now he may not win a NC, but he won't crash and burn either.
Posted on 11/25/15 at 5:56 pm to H-Town Tiger
quote:
There is zero chance Jimbo Fisher flames out. Now he may not win a NC, but he won't crash and burn either.
I would be perfectly fine with having Fisher, I just don't think its going to happen...And if we go for him and strike out, we could be left with hiring from the leftovers or promoting from within, neither which will likely bode well for LSU over the next few seasons..
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