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re: Satanic Temple puts up display at Michigan Capital
Posted on 12/22/14 at 11:10 am to DestrehanTiger
Posted on 12/22/14 at 11:10 am to DestrehanTiger
My favorite illustrative quote on the matter is, “If atheism is a belief, then NOT collecting stamps is a hobby.”
This is a good analogy because hobbies are active as well.
Either you actively have a hobby, or you don’t.
It would be silly to call someone sitting on the couch doing nothing a (non)-stamp collector.
Beliefs are the same, and that’s why atheism isn’t one.
This is a good analogy because hobbies are active as well.
Either you actively have a hobby, or you don’t.
It would be silly to call someone sitting on the couch doing nothing a (non)-stamp collector.
Beliefs are the same, and that’s why atheism isn’t one.
Posted on 12/22/14 at 11:11 am to ShortyRob
quote:Gnostic/agnostic do not pertain to belief, but to a claim about knowledge and what is knowable. It's distinct from theism/atheism, which is entirely about what is believed or not believed.
I'm of the view that there really isn't any such thing as an agnostic.
To me, one believes or one does not believe.
If one says they are "agnostic" then by definition, they do not fall into the former.
Both words are useful in describing a person's philosophical position pertaining to the existence of a god or gods, and the existence of evidence supporting belief in god.
I find it useful in clarifying my position, which is one of agnostic atheism, which is distinct from gnostic atheism. I've elaborated on this already in this thread so I'm not going to do it again.
This post was edited on 12/22/14 at 11:13 am
Posted on 12/22/14 at 11:12 am to Hog on the Hill
quote:
This is not a timeline issue. A fact is verifiable in the present. A belief is not verifiable in the present. Try to philosophize this all you want, but it does not change it. Again, I disagree. I play a shell game. I believe the ball is under the third shell because that's where it looked like it went. It is verifiable by picking up the shells. The fact is that the ball is under the second shell. My belief was wrong, but justifiable considering that I watched the shells move around. In this case, I'm taking "verifiable in the present" to mean "possible to be proven or disproven in the present" Maybe we're talking past each other?
I think we are talking past each other somewhat.
Until the moment you pick up that shell it is just a belief.
In that present moment and thereafter where the ball was is a fact.
1/1000th of a second before you verify it, it is still just a belief.
Posted on 12/22/14 at 11:16 am to Porkchop Express
quote:Let's consider a drug test. Bob smoked weed last week and none of his coworkers know it. They don't think he smokes weed because he doesn't seem like the type.
I think we are talking past each other somewhat.
Until the moment you pick up that shell it is just a belief.
In that present moment and thereafter where the ball was is a fact.
1/1000th of a second before you verify it, it is still just a belief.
Bob gets called in for a drug test. It's a fact that he smoked weed and will fail the test, but his coworkers believe that he will pass. The fact exists contemporaneously with the false belief that Bob will pass the test.
"Belief" and "fact" don't necessarily have to occupy distinct moments in time. There can be a fact, and a belief about the fact.
At least that's how I look at it.
This post was edited on 12/22/14 at 11:18 am
Posted on 12/22/14 at 11:18 am to 90proofprofessional
WNHI
And who is the serial downvoter in this thread? Show yer'self!
And who is the serial downvoter in this thread? Show yer'self!
Posted on 12/22/14 at 11:19 am to Hog on the Hill
quote:
Let's consider a drug test. Bob smoked weed last week and none of his coworkers know it. They don't think he smokes weed because he doesn't seem like the type. Bob gets called in for a drug test. It's a fact that he smoked weed and will fail the test, but his coworkers believe that he will pass. "Belief" and "fact" don't necessarily have to occupy distinct moments in time. There can be a fact, and a belief about the fact. At least that's how I look at it.
In this scenario it is a belief that Bob will fail his drug test.
Until the results are verified at a distinct moment in time it is just a belief.
Posted on 12/22/14 at 11:24 am to Porkchop Express
quote:I guess the better example is just the shell game, because it leaves out little complications like the possibility of a false negative on a drug test. Let's go back to the shell game.
In this scenario it is a belief that Bob will fail his drug test.
Until the results are verified at a distinct moment in time it is just a belief.
The person moving the shells knows the ball is under the second shell, because he intentionally moved it there. It's a fact that the ball is under the second shell.
I believe the ball is under the third shell, because unbeknownst to me, the shell-mover used sleight of hand to trick me into thinking that's where it went.
I have a belief, that happens to be false, that the ball is under the third shell. The fact is, known to the shell-mover, that the ball is under the second shell. The fact and the false belief exist contemporaneously.
I think I've explained my thoughts as clearly as I can, so I'll make this my last post about it.
Posted on 12/22/14 at 11:27 am to Hog on the Hill
quote:
In this scenario it is a belief that Bob will fail his drug test. Until the results are verified at a distinct moment in time it is just a belief. I guess the better example is just the shell game, because it leaves out little complications like the possibility of a false negative on a drug test. Let's go back to the shell game. The person moving the shells knows the ball is under the second shell, because he intentionally moved it there. It's a fact that the ball is under the second shell. I believe the ball is under the third shell, because unbeknownst to me, the shell-mover used sleight of hand to trick me into thinking that's where it went. I have a belief, that happens to be false, that the ball is under the third shell. The fact is, known to the shell-mover, that the ball is under the second shell. The fact and the false belief exist contemporaneously. I think I've explained my thoughts as clearly as I can, so I'll make this my last post about it.
But until the moment that the shell mover picks up the shell he does not know it is there. He just believes it is there.
Yeah, the discussion has run its course.
I believe...
Posted on 12/22/14 at 11:29 am to Porkchop Express
quote:No, he could feel it bouncing around under the shell.
But until the moment that the shell mover picks up the shell he does not know it is there. He just believes it is there.
Yeah, the discussion has run its course.
I believe...
Okay seriously I'm done
Posted on 12/22/14 at 11:32 am to Hog on the Hill
quote:The issue with your shell game example as I see it is that unlike God/No-God, you have definitive evidence for the ball being under one shell as you saw it go under the shell. The fact you couldn't keep track of it doesn't negate that reality.
I guess the better example is just the shell game, because it leaves out little complications like the possibility of a false negative on a drug test. Let's go back to the shell game.
To me, there is literally no evidence in existence for any God as good as seeing the ball go under one of the shells.
Posted on 12/22/14 at 11:38 am to ShortyRob
And the fact of the matter is until Shorty Rob's post, I believed the conversation was done.
(Sorry I had to...)
(Sorry I had to...)
Posted on 12/22/14 at 11:41 am to ShortyRob
quote:I agree, I didn't mean to imply anything about theism/atheism with those posts. I was going off on an epistemological tangent.
To me, there is literally no evidence in existence for any God as good as seeing the ball go under one of the shells.
Posted on 12/22/14 at 11:47 am to cwill
quote:Wow! That's awful.
There is no evidence of a god, so there are no god(s)
Hope you don't hurt yourself contorting like that.
Science is all about discovery where evidence was previously thought not to exist.
Good gosh.
Posted on 12/22/14 at 11:50 am to monsterballads
quote:
My favorite illustrative quote on the matter is, “If atheism is a belief, then NOT collecting stamps is a hobby.”
This is a good analogy
Posted on 12/22/14 at 11:59 am to Hog on the Hill
quote:"Agnostic atheist" is similar to the term "politically correct." If something is correct one need not modify the term. To say something is politically correct is actually to say it isn't correct at all. One can certainly be an agnostic with atheist leanings. That is the view you are trying to express. But either one is atheist or one is an agnostic variant. Sorry. But, as you say, it's a matter of the English language.
I'm an agnostic atheist.
Posted on 12/22/14 at 12:08 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:I can tell you're trying to find a way to concede, but you just can't let yourself do it. That's okay, I'll let you sidestep this one.
"Agnostic atheist" is similar to the term "politically correct." If something is correct one need not modify the term. To say something is politically correct is actually to say it isn't correct at all. One can certainly be an agnostic with atheist leanings. That is the view you are trying to express. But either one is atheist or one is an agnostic variant. Sorry. But, as you say, it's a matter of the English language.
Posted on 12/22/14 at 12:10 pm to Hog on the Hill
Not reading all the other stuff.
But I have been to Michigan.
There is no god in michigan.
But I have been to Michigan.
There is no god in michigan.
Posted on 12/22/14 at 12:25 pm to mahdragonz
quote:
Not reading all the other stuff.
But I have been to Michigan.
There is no god in michigan.
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