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re: BR and Louisiana legal market question
Posted on 11/7/14 at 10:02 am to Thomas Hudson
Posted on 11/7/14 at 10:02 am to Thomas Hudson
quote:
160k is standard for "BigLaw" in Texas, both Texas-based and out of state firms. But for some of the Texas-based firms, there are some caveats with that 160k. For instance, at some firms a portion of the 160k is held back as "deferred comp" that you only get if you hit a certain billable hour threshold at year end.
It's not the same standard it was in 2007, though. We say 160k in Atlanta or Houston is "market," but there are definitely 100+ lawyer firms in those towns not paying that. There used to be pressure for any firm of size to pay market, but that isn't necessarily true now. Essentially, big law is a smaller field than it used to be on that standard. Plus, I know of way more examples of first years getting paid at different salaries at mid and large law firms now. That used to never happen.
1
Posted on 11/7/14 at 10:04 am to sealawyer
quote:
Believe it or not, your T14 degree isn't going to blow the balls off the big firms down here. Median sure as shite isn't.
This is true. Back in 08-09 when the market crashed we suddenly got a bunch of resumes from mediocre students from the Ivy League. The impression I got was that they assumed that people in the sticks would be blown away by Harvard or Penn degrees, but in my experience most firms would rather hire top 10% from LSU/Tulane rather than median Harvard. Now median Harvard beats median LSU, but those aren't the kinds of jobs most Ivy Leaguers are applying for in the first place.
Your graduating from LSU undergrad is huge. A lot of these resumes were from people with no apparent connection to Louisiana, who were probably just papering the country with resumes. They didn't get serious consideration.
Posted on 11/7/14 at 10:06 am to Keys Open Doors
quote:
I'm obviously not surprised Columbia career services is giving you nothing about the Louisiana job market. Most people heading to Louisiana after Columbia are usually the "save the world" types who want to work for a legal aid office for 45K.
This is also true. Orleans PD is somehow littered with Ivy Leaguers who can't be making more than $50,000 a year.
Posted on 11/7/14 at 10:07 am to Cold Cous Cous
quote:
Your graduating from LSU undergrad is huge. A lot of these resumes were from people with no apparent connection to Louisiana, who were probably just papering the country with resumes. They didn't get serious consideration.
People assume you'll jump quickly. Happened to me applying to larger law firms in Nashville and Birmingham, when I went to interviews I was grilled regarding connections with the obvious focus on whether I intended to put any roots down. On the other side now, we consider it too.
Posted on 11/7/14 at 10:08 am to Keys Open Doors
quote:
Don't schools like Columbia not rank beyond Latin honors? With the generous curve, only a disastrous gpa will preclude interviews.
Harvard and Yale do not rank beyond Latin honors (which, for Harvard at least, are not revealed until graduation in any case) but I believe the rest of the T14 provides GPA, rank, or both.
Getting interviews probably won't be the problem - it will be getting callbacks and ultimately offers. I have a bunch of friends at HLS and YLS near the top of their class that struck out in home markets less insular than BR; given they went to New England schools, the firms tended to fear (rightly or wrongly) they would just leave for NYC/TX/other big city/state.
quote:
It's not the same standard it was in 2007, though. We say 160k in Atlanta or Houston is "market," but there are definitely 100+ lawyer firms in those towns not paying that.
Atl market is 135. Jones Day and Paul Hastings' Atl satellites pay above market only because 160 is the norm in their other offices. 160 is market only in NYC, DC, TX, CA, and a few other random cities, but the south tends to be well below 160k.
ETA:
quote:
Now median Harvard beats median LSU, but those aren't the kinds of jobs most Ivy Leaguers are applying for in the first place.
You'd be surprised by how many Harvard (and other Ivy League and T14 generally) people want to either return to or move to the south.
This post was edited on 11/7/14 at 10:11 am
Posted on 11/7/14 at 10:10 am to Pettifogger
quote:
People assume you'll jump quickly. Happened to me applying to larger law firms in Nashville and Birmingham, when I went to interviews I was grilled regarding connections with the obvious focus on whether I intended to put any roots down. On the other side now, we consider it too.
I've also been on both sides; lawyers seem uniquely worried about the "local connection" angle. I don't think entry-level accountants or engineers have to face this kind of grilling. Everyone I knew from PE went to Houston after college, and not a damn one had the slightest connection to Texas. Shell doesn't care.
I think it's a holdover from the days when you were expected to stay at one firm for 30 years, and hiring an associate was like hiring an eventual partner. But that's just not the reality anymore.
Posted on 11/7/14 at 10:13 am to Pettifogger
quote:
However, from the downturn onward, there is WAY more variation in big law pay. I have a hard time seeing any firm in the South, outside of Atlanta, Charlotte or Miami, paying 160, or even 145.
160 is normal for houston and Dallas.
Posted on 11/7/14 at 10:13 am to chongo
quote:
I asked my career services people this question and they all but laughed at me, so I seek the O-T's guidance.
Wow. frick them.
Posted on 11/7/14 at 10:14 am to Pettifogger
quote:
Essentially, big law is a smaller field than it used to be on that standard.
This is true. I'd say Texas-based "BigLaw" is no more than maybe 5-7 firms. There are lots of out of non-Texas-based "BigLaw" firms opening offices here, and those generally keep the same salary structure. Then there are maybe 5 or so lit boutiques that pay as much or more than BigLaw, if you include potential bonuses. But those jobs are extremely hard to get.
I haven't seen or heard of any internal variance in first-year base salary at BigLaw firms (not saying it doesn't happen, though), but certainly after your first year the traditional lock-step salary increases are much more discretionary.
Posted on 11/7/14 at 10:14 am to Cold Cous Cous
Yeah, it's like NBA and NFL owners. Loyalty is demanded, but very little is returned to the employee.
Posted on 11/7/14 at 10:15 am to saltydawg
quote:
Now median Harvard beats median LSU, but those aren't the kinds of jobs most Ivy Leaguers are applying for in the first place.
You'd be surprised by how many Harvard (and other Ivy League and T14 generally) people want to either return to or move to the south.
Yeah but are they looking to do 15/30 insurance defense, or family law in Assumption Parish? I doubt it. Although that's basically what Al Tate did when he got of Yale, and it worked out ok for him.
Posted on 11/7/14 at 10:22 am to saltydawg
quote:
Harvard and Yale do not rank beyond Latin honors (which, for Harvard at least, are not revealed until graduation in any case) but I believe the rest of the T14 provides GPA, rank, or both.
The top schools generally don't provide any rank or GPA, if they even use "grades." They will allow students to provide an "unofficial transcript" showing grades for individual classes, but you'd have to calculate GPA yourself. But more and more schools are going to non-standard grading systems (e.g., Berkeley, Chicago, Stanford, etc.).
quote:
I have a bunch of friends at HLS and YLS near the top of their class that struck out in home markets less insular than BR; given they went to New England schools, the firms tended to fear (rightly or wrongly) they would just leave for NYC/TX/other big city/state.
Very true.
Posted on 11/7/14 at 10:23 am to saltydawg
quote:
Atl market is 135. Jones Day and Paul Hastings' Atl satellites pay above market only because 160 is the norm in their other offices. 160 is market only in NYC, DC, TX, CA, and a few other random cities, but the south tends to be well below 160k.
When I started law school, Atlanta was 145 with a handful of firms moving toward 160. Atlanta's market is varied right now. Charlotte was also 145, although the "market" in a town like that (due to banking) was tough.
Posted on 11/7/14 at 10:30 am to Pettifogger
quote:
When I started law school, Atlanta was 145 with a handful of firms moving toward 160. Atlanta's market is varied right now. Charlotte was also 145, although the "market" in a town like that (due to banking) was tough.
The Atl legal market really went to shite in 2008. It might have been the hardest hit in the country. A not-insignificant number of big firms cut their summer classes for multiple years, and when they did hire, it was easy to get away with 135k since there were so few summer slots. The market never recovered.
It's pretty uniformly 135 for true Atl Biglaw (K&S, A+B, Sutherland, MLA, Troutman, etc). The only exceptions are the national satellites at 160k, IP between 145 and 160, and Atl midlaw between 100 and 125 (e.g. MMM).
quote:
The top schools generally don't provide any rank or GPA, if they even use "grades."
Interesting. I knew Harvard, Yale, and Stanford moved away from rankings but didn't realize the trend was catching on.
Posted on 11/7/14 at 10:30 am to UpToPar
quote:
160 is normal for houston and Dallas.
I wasn't including TX in the South. I also would caveat your statement by saying there are a lot of "larger" law firms in Houston and Dallas not at 160k. What we consider Big Law may just mean FJ, BB, etc., but there is way more variation even at firms most people consider to be large.
Posted on 11/7/14 at 10:34 am to saltydawg
quote:
It's pretty uniformly 135 for true Atl Biglaw (K&S, A+B, Sutherland, MLA, Troutman, etc). The only exceptions are the national satellites at 160k, IP between 145 and 160, and Atl midlaw between 100 and 125 (e.g. MMM).
MLA would get so pissed you called them an ATL firm...
Of that list Troutman was the most fricked. I think it has normalized to some extent, but associates in that 2008-2011 window were all over the place.
This post was edited on 11/7/14 at 10:37 am
Posted on 11/7/14 at 12:37 pm to TigerGman
quote:
Why would they even hire someone that's never read the Civil Code?
Because it is not all that different from the law of most states. The differences relate mostly to the language used to describe more or less similar legal concepts.
Posted on 11/7/14 at 12:50 pm to Pettifogger
quote:
Of that list Troutman was the most fricked. I think it has normalized to some extent, but associates in that 2008-2011 window were all over the place.
MMM had some pretty significant layoffs too. Guys went from getting multiple raises before actually starting work to on the street within a year.
Posted on 11/7/14 at 1:02 pm to Cold Cous Cous
quote:
I think it's a holdover from the days when you were expected to stay at one firm for 30 years, and hiring an associate was like hiring an eventual partner. But that's just not the reality anymore.
Mostly true. I would say it remains an aspirational goal with some firms.
Regardless, Louisiana firms are going to want to see some Louisiana connection before hiring you.
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