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re: Where we screwed up regarding Ukraine
Posted on 3/17/14 at 3:28 pm to theunknownknight
Posted on 3/17/14 at 3:28 pm to theunknownknight
quote:A classic example of a false dichotomy.
So we should be more concerned about the disenfranchisement of people across the globe, possibly using military force to protect them...
but don't seem to care about our own disenfranchisement in the USA, our own votes being canceled out by illegals etc that don't need voter ids.
1
Posted on 3/17/14 at 3:33 pm to LSURussian
quote:
There was no language in the agreement which committed any of the three parties to defend or "protect" Ukraine's sovereignty.
Russia violated its pledge to "respect" Ukraine's territorial integrity.
The U.S. has not violated the agreement.
Which is exactly why Ukraine should have a nuclear arsenal returned to their country.
Posted on 3/17/14 at 3:33 pm to LSURussian
quote:
A classic example of a false dichotomy.
It's only a false dichotomy in a vacuum. Ukraine isn't in a vacuum.
The question is, as posed by the "false" dichotomy, GIVEN the reality of our country's current status and our limited resources, what REAL justification would we have to consider aggressive unilateral actions and/or military force against another country (or multiple countries)?
Why is this having to be spelled out for you?
Posted on 3/17/14 at 3:35 pm to theunknownknight
quote:
I still don't see how this is our problem
Really?
Posted on 3/17/14 at 3:37 pm to theunknownknight
quote:Nothing has to be spelled out for me. It's you who is making silly and inappropriate analogies and making it sound like there is only one right way to view international issues.
Why is this having to be spelled out for you?
Posted on 3/17/14 at 3:37 pm to TOKEN
quote:
Really?
Yeah really.
Let's say it's the worst case scenario and we HAVE to go to war over this, what then? Who are we fighting for?
Posted on 3/17/14 at 3:39 pm to theunknownknight
quote:
Why is this having to be spelled out for you?
Eastern Ukraine is under threat.
Putin took Crimea out of a position of weakness. He could possibly try to take Eastern Ukraine or key cities because they need "protection".
Why is all this happening? Because the Moscow backed President was ousted and Ukraine wants to join NATO.
Posted on 3/17/14 at 3:39 pm to theunknownknight
quote:Who was the US fighting for when we entered the war in Europe in 1941? It was for us.
Who are we fighting for?
Posted on 3/17/14 at 3:40 pm to LSURussian
quote:
Nothing has to be spelled out for me. It's you who is making silly and inappropriate analogies and making it sound like there is only one right way to view international issues.
Taking care of our own country's issues first is a bad philosophy?
Is that silly?
Explain to me HOW we can REALLY help the Ukraine in the long run if our economy tanks in 20 years?
So, we step in for them now...get Russia even madder at us. We continue out of control domestic policies and become VERY vulnerable internationally down the road. Can we help the Ukraine then?
When does it stop?
Posted on 3/17/14 at 3:44 pm to TOKEN
quote:
He could possibly try to take Eastern Ukraine or key cities because they need "protection".
Yup even thought two Ukrainians were killed by Pro Russian supporters the other day in Donetsk.
quote:
Because the Moscow backed President was ousted and Ukraine wants to join NATO.
Exactly what it all comes down to. The people had enough of the Russian puppet fricking up their country.
Also notice how Putin does this right after his "showcase" Olympics even though they were pretty much a fail.
Posted on 3/17/14 at 3:44 pm to theunknownknight
quote:
Let's say it's the worst case scenario and we HAVE to go to war over this, what then? Who are we fighting for?
We supply the Ukrainians with weapons and start wars all over each front of Russia through the Chechnyans etct.
Saudi's have the means and resources to fund a insurgency inside Chechnya and Georgia.
We hit them with sanctions and start crippling their economy. Everyone acts as if we have no cards to play? They have economic pressure points just like everyone else.
This post was edited on 3/17/14 at 3:48 pm
Posted on 3/17/14 at 3:46 pm to LSURussian
quote:
Who was the US fighting for when we entered the war in Europe in 1941? It was for us.
Our interest
Posted on 3/17/14 at 3:46 pm to TOKEN
quote:
We supply the Ukrainians with weapons and start wars all over each front of Russia through the Chechnyans etct.
Saudi's have the means and resources to fund a insurgency inside Chechnya.
That's fine. Let's do that.
But someone needs to get those clowns in DC to shut their mouths and do that on the down low.
Screaming red lines and upping the rhetoric is going to lead up to war.
Posted on 3/17/14 at 3:47 pm to theunknownknight
quote:I'll repeat Reagan's reply when he was asked that by the whiners and cry babies of his day, "We win, they lose."
When does it stop?
Posted on 3/17/14 at 3:47 pm to TOKEN
quote:
Saudi's have the means and resources to fund a insurgency inside Chechnya.
Getting it bed with Chechnya wont happen. Thats something us and the Russians agree on taking out.
Posted on 3/17/14 at 3:48 pm to LSURussian
quote:
I'll repeat Reagan's reply when he was asked that by the whiners and cry babies of his day, "We win, they lose."
Reagan was president then. Not that poser we have now. Your response is invalid.
Posted on 3/17/14 at 3:49 pm to theunknownknight
quote:
So we should be more concerned about the disenfranchisement of people across the globe, possibly using military force to protect them
i didnt mention using military force, but the point is that Putins logic and path have a history of developing in to some of Europe's biggest wars. NOW is the time to interven to prevent it from becoming anything more than it is. With a global economy this interdependent, its possible if Europe is on board.
quote:
but don't seem to care about our own disenfranchisement in the USA, our own votes being canceled out by illegals etc that don't need voter ids.
yeah its a problem. doesnt mean you stick your head in the sand and forget about everything else going on.
quote:
We are concerned for their freedoms
its not about Ukraine as much as its about what Putin is doing, and how hes justfying it.
quote:
but sit idly by while our own rights are eroding away?
Jesus this could be another whole thread. If you dont like it here move.
Posted on 3/17/14 at 3:50 pm to theunknownknight
quote:
But someone needs to get those clowns in DC to shut their mouths and do that on the down low.
Screaming red lines and upping the rhetoric is going to lead up to war.
We make it clear to Putin Eastern Ukraine is off limits.
Still, you are right. Never show your escalation strategy when you are in a confrontation.
Posted on 3/17/14 at 3:54 pm to theunknownknight
quote:Your response to my response is invalid.
Your response is invalid.
:rimshot:
Posted on 3/17/14 at 3:54 pm to theunknownknight
quote:
Taking care of our own country's issues first is a bad philosophy?
Is that silly?
Explain to me HOW we can REALLY help the Ukraine in the long run if our economy tanks in 20 years?
It's not silly, it makes great sense.
The problem is, and Russian knows this, that this is about the G7 economies vs the BRIC economies. Ukraine is a pivotal area and both want to control it, it's a great capture for the G7 both economically and militarily if we get Ukraine.
We are not a nation that can succeed independently. We've turned our currency into the global reserve, we've built an economy that relies on cooperation from countries around the globe, there's a lot more that can be said, but basically we can not just sit back and take care of our own backyard, we've installed a system that requires imperialist motives.
This post was edited on 3/17/14 at 3:56 pm
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