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Message
re: 1140 Yards, 11 Touchdowns, 0 Interceptions, beat Manning AND Brady on the road
Posted on 2/4/13 at 2:58 pm to Patrick_Bateman
Posted on 2/4/13 at 2:58 pm to Patrick_Bateman
quote:
No legitimate has been provided yet.
Dan fouts
Your confusing certainty with correlation
Posted on 2/4/13 at 2:59 pm to ZTiger87
quote:
He played just as well in the playoffs as Brees did in 09. To say he just played "well" is a pretty big understatement.
His post-season performance this year no doubt deserves $20million. The question becomes that once you pay him $20million, will the loss in value at other positions bc of the contract be small emough to bring you back to a super bowl? Can flacco at $20 million bring a team to a super bowl?
I think the answer is no.
Posted on 2/4/13 at 3:04 pm to DelU249
He will be in the top five in 2013 if he doesn't restructure.
The argument from many (mostly Falcons fans) on this site is that Brees's contract somehow cripples the Saints, and that if Flacco gets a big contract (one that I do not believe he deserves, but that's the market...), the Ravens will be crippled.
I don't buy that reasoning, because other successful teams have invested similar portions of their cap in the QB position.
My point of contention is not whether the QB is worth 20 million per. Rather, it's about whether Flacco is. Because of the market and the franchise tag rules, he will get somewhere in that ballpark. I believe that the Ravens will pay that and that they will be overpaying him.
The argument from many (mostly Falcons fans) on this site is that Brees's contract somehow cripples the Saints, and that if Flacco gets a big contract (one that I do not believe he deserves, but that's the market...), the Ravens will be crippled.
I don't buy that reasoning, because other successful teams have invested similar portions of their cap in the QB position.
My point of contention is not whether the QB is worth 20 million per. Rather, it's about whether Flacco is. Because of the market and the franchise tag rules, he will get somewhere in that ballpark. I believe that the Ravens will pay that and that they will be overpaying him.
Posted on 2/4/13 at 3:09 pm to DelU249
quote:
Dan fouts
Never saw him play personally, so I can only look up his statistics. Certainly not the best record, I'll admit, but he was over .500 for his career (86-84-1). And his TD:INT ratio was barely 1 (i.e., he threw basically as as many INTs as TDs).
quote:
Your confusing certainty with correlation
A very, very strong correlation.
This post was edited on 2/4/13 at 3:10 pm
Posted on 2/4/13 at 3:10 pm to Sophandros
I think so too and unless these teams, excluding the big 4, consistently find impact players after the first round they're effed
Brees put up back to back 40 TD seasons with
Colston
Moore
Henderson
Meachem
Morgan
Graham
No way flacco can do that even with a great group of skill players that they won't be able to afford because he's 1/6 of their cap
And we're not even talking about defense. Once you pay $20 million you have little room for error with the rest of your deals.
Brees put up back to back 40 TD seasons with
Colston
Moore
Henderson
Meachem
Morgan
Graham
No way flacco can do that even with a great group of skill players that they won't be able to afford because he's 1/6 of their cap
And we're not even talking about defense. Once you pay $20 million you have little room for error with the rest of your deals.
Posted on 2/4/13 at 3:10 pm to DelU249
quote:
He's not going to consistently give you that performance during the regular season or at the very least hasn't shown that he can.
Well you said you didn't think Flacco could do it despite having just done it. You didn't say consistently in your original statement, but he has consistently made it to the playoffs and won. His previous two postseasons he was also very good. His regular season numbers could be better, but the Ravens have been a running team for a long time.
quote:
Brees, Brady, Manning and Rodgers are putting up great numbers and doing so consistently with meh talent at WR/RB. Thats worth $20 million.
I would say all those guys have better WRs/TEs than Flacco does. Especially when you take previous years into account. Ravens do have the better running game though.
This post was edited on 2/4/13 at 3:11 pm
Posted on 2/4/13 at 3:11 pm to Patrick_Bateman
Is .500 not a mediocre record?
Fouts played in a different era. He is an all time great.
Fouts played in a different era. He is an all time great.
Posted on 2/4/13 at 3:14 pm to Patrick_Bateman
Ozzie Newsome deserves the most praise, not Joe Flacco . He put competent players at almost every position on that Baltimore team. Joe Flacco's success is a byproduct of that.
People want to harp on his success, most notably his playoff success. Look at his stats.. QB ratings of 59, 10, 18, 61, 48. Sure, he played well this postseason and beat some good defenses.
Even still, his 86 playoff QB rating would have tied Cam Newtwon for 15th overall this past season. His 55% completion percentage would fall 29th this season, one spot behind Jake Locker. He has 2 300 yard games out of 13. 4 games he threw 0 TDs, and 2 games he threw 1 TD.
Has Joe Flacco led teams had success? Sure. Has he "won" the games? Meh. Without Jacoby Jones he isnt a Super Bowl winning QB.
If Kaepernick gets his team into the endzone at the end, does that change his legacy and his perceived accomplishments?
People want to harp on his success, most notably his playoff success. Look at his stats.. QB ratings of 59, 10, 18, 61, 48. Sure, he played well this postseason and beat some good defenses.
Even still, his 86 playoff QB rating would have tied Cam Newtwon for 15th overall this past season. His 55% completion percentage would fall 29th this season, one spot behind Jake Locker. He has 2 300 yard games out of 13. 4 games he threw 0 TDs, and 2 games he threw 1 TD.
Has Joe Flacco led teams had success? Sure. Has he "won" the games? Meh. Without Jacoby Jones he isnt a Super Bowl winning QB.
If Kaepernick gets his team into the endzone at the end, does that change his legacy and his perceived accomplishments?
This post was edited on 2/4/13 at 3:16 pm
Posted on 2/4/13 at 3:15 pm to ZTiger87
quote:
Well you said you didn't think Flacco could do it despite having just done it. You didn't say consistently in your original statement, but he has consistently made it to the playoffs and won. His previous two postseasons he was also very good. His regular season numbers could be better, but the Ravens have been a running team for a long time.
1. Flacco is a cog in the machine, guys like brees are the machine.
2. Flacco did not do what I described. He has a small cap hit and the ravens can afford lots of good players. Flacco isn't winning shite without them
3. Torrey smith, anquan boldin, Bryant mckinnie, birk, oher, leach. That's a good supporting cast and definitely better than what the big 4 are working with. Rodgers was throwing to cobb and Nelson all year with no runningback to even speak of
This post was edited on 2/4/13 at 3:16 pm
Posted on 2/4/13 at 3:46 pm to GynoSandberg
quote:
his 86 playoff QB rating would have tied Cam Newtwon for 15th overall this past season
Regular season =/= postseason. That's an interesting stat to bring up. Let's compare some current and former NFL QBs to Joe Flacco's career postseason QB rating of 86.2 (through 13 games). Tom Brady's is 87.4 (24 games), Peyton Manning's is 88.4 (20 games), Eli Manning's is 89.3 (11 games), Roethlisberger's is 83.7 (14 games), Steve Young's is 85.8 (20 games), Dan Marino's is 77.1 (18 games), Terry Bradshaw's is 83.0 (19 games).
Pretty good company, I'd say. And that's only through his first 5 seasons! If Flacco plays only 8 more seasons and maintains his current pace of playoff success (a big "if"), he will have played in and won more playoff games than anyone on that list!
This post was edited on 2/4/13 at 3:48 pm
Posted on 2/4/13 at 3:55 pm to GynoSandberg
quote:
People want to harp on his success, most notably his playoff success. Look at his stats.. QB ratings of 59, 10, 18, 61, 48. Sure, he played well this postseason and beat some good defenses.
Seems sort of silly to even talk about years 1 and 2 of his career
Over the past 2 post seasons he has had over 95 QB rating in every game
And over the past 3 he has only had one poor rating game against Pittsburgh
Posted on 2/4/13 at 4:04 pm to Powerman
So you get to hang your hat on Flacco making the AFC Championship game as a rookie but you get to omit his 55 QB rating? Or his 29 QB rating the next season? Can't have it both ways if you want to talk about his full body of work.
Im not even saying he is a bad QB. His team wins games and that's all you can ask for. Should he get all the credit for the team's success? Naw.
Im not even saying he is a bad QB. His team wins games and that's all you can ask for. Should he get all the credit for the team's success? Naw.
Posted on 2/4/13 at 4:17 pm to Patrick_Bateman
quote:
Regular season =/= postseason. That's an interesting stat to bring up. Let's compare some current and former NFL QBs to Joe Flacco's career postseason QB rating of 86.2 (through 13 games). Tom Brady's is 87.4 (24 games), Peyton Manning's is 88.4 (20 games), Eli Manning's is 89.3 (11 games), Roethlisberger's is 83.7 (14 games), Steve Young's is 85.8 (20 games), Dan Marino's is 77.1 (18 games), Terry Bradshaw's is 83.0 (19 games).
Pretty good company, I'd say. And that's only through his first 5 seasons! If Flacco plays only 8 more seasons and maintains his current pace of playoff success (a big "if"), he will have played in and won more playoff games than anyone on that list!
I wasn't comparing his QB Rating to anyone else. I was just saying he has been mediocre in the playoffs and his team deserves more credit.
I also don't think success in the playoffs means you're a good QB. Mark Sanchez has a 94 QB Rating in the playoffs and is 4-2.
As for the guys you listed, Brady had a QB rating of 90 and 3 SB rings in his first 13 playoff games.
Manning is a notorious playoff choker.
Flacco is probably on Eli and Ben's level.
The other guys are different eras.
Either way, those guys have played more playoff games. They have also proved to be the best QBs in the regular season consistently. We are talking 10+ years as a top 3 QB for most of those guys. Flacco is generally ranked outside the top 10 in all regular season statistics.
Posted on 2/4/13 at 4:21 pm to DelU249
quote:
1. Flacco is a cog in the machine, guys like brees are the machine.
To be fair, Brady and Brees weren't the "machine" 5 years into their careers either. With Smith, Pitta and Dickson starting to emerge he might finally have a good set of targets to throw to.
quote:
2. Flacco did not do what I described. He has a small cap hit and the ravens can afford lots of good players. Flacco isn't winning shite without them
Every Super Bowl team has had a bunch of really good players...
quote:
3. Torrey smith, anquan boldin, Bryant mckinnie, birk, oher, leach. That's a good supporting cast and definitely better than what the big 4 are working with. Rodgers was throwing to cobb and Nelson all year with no runningback to even speak of
It's a decent supporting cast. The Saints, Patriots and Broncos all have better offensive talent. The Packers are the only team who might not, and I would say they still have a much better group of receivers than the Ravens do.
Posted on 2/4/13 at 4:42 pm to Patrick_Bateman
Warren Moon is one game over. 500.
Is he merely mediocre?
How about Ken Anderson?
Is he merely mediocre?
How about Ken Anderson?
Posted on 2/4/13 at 5:23 pm to Sophandros
Dan Fouts and Warren Moon are acceptable answers to the "great QBs with poor records" question. I don't know much about Ken Anderson TBH. My point is, they are very few and far between. Generally speaking, QB play (both statistically, and leadership-wise) is directly related to a team's success/failure.
Posted on 2/4/13 at 6:03 pm to Patrick_Bateman
Ken Andersen was awesome and was yay close to beating Montana and the niners in the SB. He held the record for single season completion percentage for almost 30 years until Brees broke it. He isn't in the HOF because he played for
The bengals and he had a horrible porn stache
The bengals and he had a horrible porn stache
Posted on 2/4/13 at 6:12 pm to GynoSandberg
quote:
So you get to hang your hat on Flacco making the AFC Championship game as a rookie but you get to omit his 55 QB rating? Or his 29 QB rating the next season? Can't have it both ways if you want to talk about his full body of work.
I don't recall me bragging about his awesome rookie season
I'm not trying to have it both ways
I'm pointing out that he has obviously improved
Posted on 2/4/13 at 6:40 pm to Powerman
Also, if you look at those playoff performances, it's pretty clear there's a dividing line there. In his first two seasons, Flacco was just a guy keeping the lights on. IN the past three seasons, he's been one of the prime reasons for the success. In the past three years, he's only had one poor game in the playoffs. So, yeah, I think it's fair to use Flacco's playoff success in his favor.
Posted on 2/4/13 at 6:48 pm to Powerman
quote:
I don't recall me bragging about his awesome rookie season
I'm not trying to have it both ways
There were 10 pages of people claiming he was a big time QB because of his playoff success. I was simply saying he sucked at times and still had success, mainly because of the talent on his teams. It wasn't all on him.
quote:
I'm pointing out that he has obviously improved
Has he? Or was he just hot for a 4 game stretch?
His regular season numbers have arguably regressed.
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