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2
Posted on 12/26/13 at 6:07 pm to ladytiger118
LT you've got to read it!
It's a pretty good, quick and easy read. A few awesome fighting scenes.
It's a pretty good, quick and easy read. A few awesome fighting scenes.
This post was edited on 12/26/13 at 6:08 pm
Posted on 12/26/13 at 8:15 pm to ladytiger118
What do you think will become of Rhaegar's rubies that are being found on the Quiet Isle?
Posted on 12/26/13 at 8:53 pm to Analyze That
Not sure, but didn't Elder Brother say that one more is missing (which can be referring to Jon Snow)?
Saw this on ASOIAF forum:
Also, a bit off topic, but some hilarious commercials with GoT actors pre-GoT:
Nikolaj Coster Waldau-- "Pastasalat"
Nikolaj Coster Waldau Sausage Commercial
Rory McCann Scotts Porrige Oats--Read the YouTube comments too
Porrige Oats 2
Early Acting Gigs of GoT Actors
Saw this on ASOIAF forum:
quote:
If you recall the woods witch prophecy about the PtwP, she claimed it would come from the line of Aerys II and Rhaella. Well, it turns out that there have been six products of that union that are known in-story:
Rhaegar
Viserys
Daenerys
Rhaenys
Aegon
Rhaego
The seventh is Jon Snow
Also, a bit off topic, but some hilarious commercials with GoT actors pre-GoT:
Nikolaj Coster Waldau-- "Pastasalat"
Nikolaj Coster Waldau Sausage Commercial
Rory McCann Scotts Porrige Oats--Read the YouTube comments too
Porrige Oats 2
Early Acting Gigs of GoT Actors
Posted on 12/27/13 at 11:28 am to ladytiger118
Page II is unacceptable. BUMP.
Posted on 12/27/13 at 11:33 am to Sid in Lakeshore
Sapphires=Secrets (with text evidence) 
I double post too much on here as it is, so thanks for the bump!
Not sure if this has been discussed much, but supposedly every time GRRM mentions Sapphires that it means secrets/things are being withheld, and that Boars=regime changes. I'll go back and edit my post to link the ASOIAF thread.
I double post too much on here as it is, so thanks for the bump! Not sure if this has been discussed much, but supposedly every time GRRM mentions Sapphires that it means secrets/things are being withheld, and that Boars=regime changes. I'll go back and edit my post to link the ASOIAF thread.
This post was edited on 12/27/13 at 11:36 am
Posted on 12/27/13 at 12:29 pm to ladytiger118
You are most welcome. I appreciate your posts.
Posted on 12/27/13 at 12:35 pm to ladytiger118
that thread is awesome
Posted on 12/27/13 at 4:20 pm to NIH
These are some other really good threads:
Jon Snow-Luke Skywalker parallels
Monomyth of Jon Snow
In another thread, I found myself pointing out once again that Jon Snow is following a fairly straightforward hero's path in the Joseph Campbell mold. It then occurred to me that this path hadn't really been discussed or analyzed. I have looked at how Jon fits into various mythologies thanks to his probable resurrection, but not so much his arc as a whole.
Bluntly, in a series where GRRM seems fond of subverting expectations and deconstructing tropes, Jon is a character that up to this point has been played pretty straight. Barring some plan to turn Jon into the Night King or ally of the Others (which is obviously possible but in my opinion not likely), Jon's ultimate arc can be traced using Campbell's method, along with input from writers like Phil Cousineau (I read both Campbell and Cousineau at university; highly recommended).
The monomyth is, broadly speaking, a blueprint of sorts that can be used to explain and map heroes' journeys across world cultures and mythology. It can also explain the journeys of figures like Christ and the Buddha.
Campbell's monomyth blueprint has 17 stages; Cousineau's has seven or eight. They are as follows, with notes on how they pertain to Jon specifically.
Jon Snow-Luke Skywalker parallels
Monomyth of Jon Snow
In another thread, I found myself pointing out once again that Jon Snow is following a fairly straightforward hero's path in the Joseph Campbell mold. It then occurred to me that this path hadn't really been discussed or analyzed. I have looked at how Jon fits into various mythologies thanks to his probable resurrection, but not so much his arc as a whole.
Bluntly, in a series where GRRM seems fond of subverting expectations and deconstructing tropes, Jon is a character that up to this point has been played pretty straight. Barring some plan to turn Jon into the Night King or ally of the Others (which is obviously possible but in my opinion not likely), Jon's ultimate arc can be traced using Campbell's method, along with input from writers like Phil Cousineau (I read both Campbell and Cousineau at university; highly recommended).
The monomyth is, broadly speaking, a blueprint of sorts that can be used to explain and map heroes' journeys across world cultures and mythology. It can also explain the journeys of figures like Christ and the Buddha.
Campbell's monomyth blueprint has 17 stages; Cousineau's has seven or eight. They are as follows, with notes on how they pertain to Jon specifically.
quote:
1. The Call to Adventure
This one is fairly easy. It's Jon's decision to join the Night's Watch. The Night's Watch, incidentally, apparently fought the Battle for the Dawn against the Others the last time around, and won. It makes sense that it would be Ground Zero.
2. The Hero Refuses the Call
This can be read multiple ways. First, it can be read as Jon refusing to "only" be Mormont's steward; that is his role and he at first rejects it. It can also be read in terms of Jon leaving his post only to be brought back; this incident also fits into the idea of trials, which will come up later.
3. Supernatural Help
The hero receives a guide, someone from a different plane of existence and/or someone with supernatural abilities. In the earliest iteration, and I would argue well beyond that to the present time, this figure for Jon seems to be Bloodraven. Bloodraven is strongly implied to be behind the Stark direwolves' discovery. Mormont's raven "tells" Jon how to destroy the wights, and the raven helps swing the election Jon's way. And many people believe that whatever is in Jon's future, Bloodraven will play some role in it.
4. The Crossing of the First Threshold
This could also be called the "shite just got real" stage. As an extension of #3, I think that in Jon's case this is when he first encounters and kills the wights in Mormont's chambers. It represents the hero's first brush with something that is beyond his understanding and control, something dangerous. It is meant to be a preview, not the main event.
5. The Belly of the Whale
Crossing the Rubicon, no going back, a separation between the hero as he is and as he must become. It could be said to be a line between life and death, two planes of existence, etc. As I argue in the resurrection mythology thread, I think that Jon's speech in the shield hall functions as such here. It is that speech and its immediate aftermath that will be what plunges Jon into the "underworld," his catabasis.
6. The Trials
This is a line of tests or struggles that the hero must overcome in order to get to that higher plane of existence. In ASOIAF terms, I think we have #6 coming up earlier than #5, with the final step of #6 coinciding with the occurrence of #5. That is to say, I think Jon's trials as such are the tests to his commitment to the Watch. In Campbell's model, these tend to come in groups of three. Jon has similarly been tested three times — when Robb went to war, when he had to embed with the wildlings and fell in love with Ygritte, and when he received the Pink Letter. The third trial coincides with the Belly of the Whale moment.
7. Meeting With the Goddess
This is where things get tricky and enter into speculation, because the rest of Jon's hero's journey has yet to be fully written. It is meant to illustrate the hero's encounter with unconditional, powerful love. There are multiple possibilities for Jon. The first is that this has already happened, with Ygritte. The second is that it represents someone like Arya, the person whom Jon seems to love most in the world. And the third is that it's actually Lyanna, Jon's mother. This love is actually meant to approximate the love between mother and child, so if it is Lyanna whom Jon encounters in the "underworld," then this makes sense. The hero must meet and earn the love of this goddess in order to be worthy of the boon.
8. The Temptress
This is also something that could have multiple connotations for Jon. Most literally and obviously, it could be Melisandre or anyone who tries to steer Jon away from his path. But this temptation doesn't have to take the form of a person. If, for instance, Jon encounters Lyanna during the catabasis and must make a decision whether or not to continue onward (say, to the Winterfell crypts, a place that frightens him and/or causes his anguish), then that would in theory satisfy the temptation requirement — the temptation is there for him to turn back and refuse the boon. ETA: As shown below, Stannis's offer of Winterfell and Val could be construed as Jon's temptation moment, seeing as leaving the Watch to take up the Stark lordship would have obviously made him deviate from his path.
9. Meeting the Father
This is also known as meeting the ultimate power in the hero's life. Generally it's represented as a father god, a patriarchal figure. In Jon's case, especially if the goddess is actually Lyanna, it could be him encountering Rhaegar, his father. It could also refer to Bloodraven himself, he who's pulling the strings of Jon's life. The goddess and the father are actually intended to mirror each other in a way, with the goddess giving the hero comfort before his encounter with the father. It's basically a period of ultimate understanding — the hero encounters this figure of ultimate power and begins to understand the inner workings of his destiny.
10. Apotheosis
A period of rest and downtime before claiming the boon. Externally, this could refer to Jon warging Ghost or remaining in a coma until he is reawakened.
11. The Boon
This is the endgame of the catabasis. Everything the hero has done and encountered up to this point has worked toward the boon. The boon may be literal or symbolic. In Jon's case, given his dreams of the crypts, I think that his boon will actually be information gleaned from Lyanna, Rhaegar, Bloodraven or even all three. The crypts may serve as the symbolic setting, the line between life and death and perhaps also the real-world location of some tangible piece of proof as to Jon's identity.
Posted on 12/27/13 at 4:22 pm to ladytiger118
Jon Snow--Monomyth con't:
quote:
12. Refusal to Return
Having found this inner peace and enlightenment during his catabasis, the hero will be hesitant to come back from it. It's not hard to see how this can come to be with Jon, especially if he's aware in this state that he was actually assassinated. If the figures he encounters are his parents, even just one of them, then it's also possible that he would prefer to stay in this state with them. Finally knowing who he is and encountering his mother and/or father could make him want to stay right where he is.
13. The Magical Flight
This is how the hero returns from the underworld with his boon. It often has an element of the supernatural, hence "magical." In Jon's case, I think this is how he awakens from his coma/death. His own magical flight is the process by which he becomes Jon again, after warging into Ghost, going into a coma and/or dying entirely. It does not need to be a physical journey; a journey of the mind suffices.
14. The Rescue
This ties into #13 and shows that the hero might need/get help from external sources in order to return with his boon. I think in Jon's case this can be Bloodraven, Bran and/or Melisandre. It's the people pulling the strings of the Magical Flight.
15. The Second Threshold
Once the hero returns with his boon, he must reintegrate into his society and share his newfound wisdom with that society. It's not enough that he has the boon and comes back; he must apply it. In Jon's case, this could be sharing his real identity, sharing the real way to defeat the Others, or embracing his prophetic role in the whole thing. There are multiple possibilities; it just depends on the exact nature of the boon and its applications.
16. Master of Two Worlds
In the Campbell tradition, this implies transcending boundaries and achieving both spiritual and physical enlightenment. There is emphasis on balance; the hero can now achieve a happy medium between his spiritual and physical selves. In Jon's arc, I'm wondering if we'll see not a vertical dichotomy (physical below and spiritual above), but a horizontal dichotomy: ice and fire, side by side.
17. Freedom
By finding this balance, the hero loses his fear of death and is thus able to live in the moment and accomplish what needs to be done without self-doubt, hesitation or worries for the future. Or, this is the Azor Ahai moment.
It's important to note that the monomyth idea obviously has its limitations and shortcomings. My classics professor at school pointed out that the "one size fits all" idea tended to blur different societies' myths until they were fairly uniform. Of course it tends to favor the male gender, probably because it's based on stories and myths from largely patriarchal societies. And you do have writers who tend to undermine it or at least approach it differently, like Herbert did with "Dune," the idea that the inner voice is the one to be followed and not the external idea of what a hero should be. But I think that fits well within the characterization of Jon as someone who's thoughtful and constantly pushing and questioning himself mentally. This is not turning Jon into Hercules or the Buddha or anyone completely above reproach (which is also a shortcoming of the idea), but rather looking at a model to see what it has said and could say about Jon's arc. I think GRRM's work fits in well with Herbert's ideas in "Dune," that there's no such thing as an infallible leader and that a person should have to own and account for his or her mistakes. But in a series that seems to punish would-be heroes, I'd argue that Jon is the purest hero figure left standing (as it were).
I would also suggest that despite Jon following this path, GRRM has already undermined or tweaked parts of it in ways that fit his overall themes. Jon is not the product of immaculate godly conception, nor was he marked for greatness as a child and initiated into his journey at a very young age. The opposite, actually — Jon was raised as a bastard who has no idea who he really is. The call to adventure is anything but glamorous — Jon sets off to join a broken, corrupt institution that is not heroic or taken seriously anymore. His entry into the underworld is completely unwilling — he's assassinated. The boon, if it is in fact knowledge about who he really is, will likely bring him no real joy, and the real world will not greet his wisdom with thanks or acceptance; it will probably be the opposite. For all of this, Jon could very well still fight and die in obscurity, known as a bastard or even outright hated. The supernatural help from Bloodraven could be coming with other motivations in mind, poisoned help. His "rescue" could leave him less than or different from how he once was. It's fascinating how GRRM can seem to follow this blueprint fairly faithfully while still keeping it fresh and surprising in places.
Too Long, Didn't Read
Jon Snow, through joining the Watch, encountering the supernatural and preparing to face a likely resurrection and/or some supernatural occurrence after his stabbing, is following Campbell's monomyth model of the hero's journey. GRRM seems to have kept much of it intact while altering parts that fit better with his style and with Jon as an individual character. Though the monomyth has a few very valid criticisms and shortcomings, I think the bulk of it, in conjunction with Martin's own input and style, fits Jon's narrative arc thus far and probably the future arc too.
Posted on 12/27/13 at 6:14 pm to ladytiger118
Wow. Great posts. 
Posted on 12/28/13 at 12:22 am to glassman
quote:
Big Bucket laughed in his face. “Lord Pea Pod. If you were a man, I would kill you for that, but my
sword is made of too fine a steel to besmirch with craven’s blood.” He took a drink of ale and wiped his
mouth. “Aye, men are dying. More will die before we see Winterfell. What of it? This is war. Men die in
war. That is as it should be. As it has always been.”
Ser Corliss Penny gave the clan chief an incredulous look. “Do you want to die, Wull?”
That seemed to amuse the northman. “I want to live forever in a land where summer lasts a
thousand years. I want a castle in the clouds where I can look down over the world. I want to be
six-and-twenty again. When I was six-and-twenty I could fight all day and frick all night. What men want
does not matter.
“Winter is almost upon us, boy. And winter is death. I would sooner my men die fighting for the
Ned’s little girl than alone and hungry in the snow, weeping tears that freeze upon their cheeks. No one
sings songs of men who die like that. As for me, I am old. This will be my last winter. Let me bathe in
Bolton blood before I die. I want to feel it spatter across my face when my axe bites deep into a Bolton
skull. I want to lick it off my lips and die with the taste of it on my tongue.”
Reminds me of a certain Tyrion quote.
Posted on 12/28/13 at 11:02 am to Analyze That
Which one??
Posted on 12/28/13 at 12:23 pm to ladytiger118
Posted on 12/28/13 at 12:59 pm to Analyze That
quote:
I saw you. “I gave you three. I don’t need to give you four.” Maybe on the morrow she would tell
him about the cat that had followed her home last night from Pynto’s, the cat that was hiding in the
rafters, looking down on them. Or maybe not. If he could have secrets, so could she.
Did Arya warg into this cat?
Posted on 12/28/13 at 2:27 pm to Analyze That
So I finished GRRM's new novella detailing the Dance with Dragon's.
It's about 80 pages. He crams a lot of info into such a short story. Much more than the D&E novellas IMO.
A few good fight scenes and some cool info on some of the nobel houses.
I'm going to reread it again in a few days to see what I missed. It's worth a read for ASoIaF fans but I was hoping for more. It felt rushed at times
It's about 80 pages. He crams a lot of info into such a short story. Much more than the D&E novellas IMO.
A few good fight scenes and some cool info on some of the nobel houses.
I'm going to reread it again in a few days to see what I missed. It's worth a read for ASoIaF fans but I was hoping for more. It felt rushed at times
Posted on 12/28/13 at 9:01 pm to Analyze That
I think she did.
I want Arya and Nymeria to reunite.
I want Arya and Nymeria to reunite.
Posted on 12/28/13 at 9:17 pm to Analyze That
quote:
Did Arya warg into this cat?
I think so. If she reunites with Nymeria she is going to be the baddest person in Westeros. A Faceless/Warging assassin with a dire wolf led pack of death machines.
So badass.
This post was edited on 12/28/13 at 9:19 pm
Posted on 12/28/13 at 9:59 pm to ladytiger118
If anybody has a pdf or word file of The Mystery Knight email to cosmokramer9@gmail.com
Have read the first two parts of dunk and egg
Have read the first two parts of dunk and egg
Posted on 12/28/13 at 11:33 pm to Cosmo
HugoStiglitz has them.
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