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In the mid-19th century what did the phrase "subject to the jurisdiction of the US" mean?
Posted on 4/7/26 at 4:40 pm
Posted on 4/7/26 at 4:40 pm
I came across this vernacular nuance in the " I asked ChatGPT to make an argument against Birthright Citizenship" thread. The nuance -- "subject to the jurisdiction of the US" meant allegiance to the US and no other country -- should have been clearly apparent to Fuller's SCOTUS in 1898. It was instead ignored. Now here we are.
Here are 3 AI answers:
ChatGPT's answer
Claude's answer:
Gemini's answer:
Here are 3 AI answers:
ChatGPT's answer
quote:
"Historical meaning of jurisdiction (1866–1868): In antebellum and Reconstruction legal usage, “subject to the jurisdiction” generally meant complete political allegiance, not simply obedience to local laws.
Lyman Trumbull—chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee and co-author of the 1866 Civil Rights Act—explicitly stated that the phrase meant “not owing allegiance to anybody else.”
Claude's answer:
quote:
Q: In the mid-19th century what did the phrase "subject to the jurisdiction of the United States" mean?
A: This is a significant question in constitutional history, particularly relevant to understanding the 14th Amendment (1868).
Meaning of "Subject to the Jurisdiction of the United States" in the Mid-19th Century
The Textual Context
The phrase appears in the 14th Amendment's Citizenship Clause: "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States." The clause was deliberately crafted, meaning the phrase was not redundant — it was meant to exclude certain groups.
What the Phrase Meant
In mid-19th century legal and political thought, "subject to the jurisdiction" carried a fairly specific meaning: owing complete, direct, and exclusive allegiance to the United States government, not to any foreign power. This was understood in contrast to a merely territorial or partial jurisdiction (the physical power to arrest, tax, or regulate someone within U.S. borders).
The distinction drawn was between:
Full/complete jurisdiction — a person whose allegiance was entirely owed to the U.S., with no competing sovereign claim over them
Partial/territorial jurisdiction — a person physically present and subject to U.S. laws, but whose primary political allegiance lay elsewhere
Gemini's answer:
quote:
Q: In the mid-19th century what did the phrase "subject to the jurisdiction of the United States" mean?
A: In the mid-19th century—specifically leading up to the ratification of the 14th Amendment in 1868—the phrase "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" (or of the United States) carried a very specific legal and political weight. It wasn't just about being physically present on American soil; it was about allegiance.
To understand the 19th-century perspective, you have to look at how legal scholars like Senator Jacob Howard (the amendment’s sponsor) and Lyman Trumbull defined it during the Congressional debates.
1. The Core Meaning:Total Allegiance
In the 1860s, being "subject to the jurisdiction" meant being under the complete and exclusive legal authority of the United States. This required a person to owe no allegiance to any other foreign power.
• Political Jurisdiction: This wasn't just "territorial jurisdiction" (obeying local laws while visiting). It meant the U.S. government had the power to draft you, tax you, and punish you for treason.
• The "Two-Sovereign" Problem: If a person owed allegiance to a foreign king or a tribal chief, they were seen as being under a different jurisdiction, even if they were standing in Washington D.C.
2. Who was Excluded?
The phrase was specifically designed to exclude certain groups who were physically in the U.S. but lacked "total allegiance":
Diplomats: Children of foreign ambassadors were excluded because their parents remained under the legal "umbrella" of their home country (diplomatic immunity).
Native Americans: This was the most debated group. In the mid-19th century, tribes were viewed as "quasi-sovereign" nations. Since tribal members owed allegiance to their chiefs and tribal laws, the Supreme Court ruled in Elk v. Wilkins (1884) that they were not "subject to the jurisdiction" of the U.S. at birth, even if born on U.S. soil.
Invading Armies: If a foreign army occupied U.S. territory, children born to those soldiers were not considered U.S. citizens because they were under the jurisdiction of the invading sovereign.
3. The 19th-Century Legal Distinction
The legal philosophy of the time relied on a distinction between two types of jurisdiction:![]()
4. The Shift: United States v. Wong Kim Ark (1898)
While you asked about the mid-19th century, it’s important to note that the definition became much broader toward the end of the century.
In the landmark 1898 case, the Supreme Court ruled that a child born in the U.S. to Chinese parents (who were legally barred from becoming citizens themselves) was a U.S. citizen. The Court decided that "subject to the jurisdiction" simply meant being subject to U.S. laws while living here, effectively moving away from the "total allegiance" requirement for everyone except diplomats and invading armies.
Note: In the 1860s, the authors of the 14th Amendment were primarily focused on ensuring that formerly enslaved people—who owed no allegiance to any other power—were indisputably recognized as citizens, overturning the Dred Scott decision.
This post was edited on 4/7/26 at 4:43 pm
Posted on 4/7/26 at 4:46 pm to NC_Tigah
I wish they'd put the words "in good standing" in there. 
Posted on 4/7/26 at 5:16 pm to NC_Tigah
That's not what "subject to the jurisdiction" means. It means that one must follow the laws of the land. Hence the word, jurisdiction.
Posted on 4/7/26 at 5:17 pm to NC_Tigah
I read an article the other day about the trial of John Brown and how he was found guilty of essentially treason against Virginia. He had never lived in VA in his entire life. The argument was he owed allegiance to the commonwealth when he entered the state.
The point was this was maybe the most famous trial in American history to that point, and it took place roughly 14 years prior to the drafting of the 14th Amendment. The author’s point is the drafters would have had that concept of allegiance in mind when drafting.
It’s an interesting article. I’ll give the link below. It’s from Slate which is left, so some people will refuse to even read or engage with it. I think it’s good to see how courts were interpreting this concept of allegiance back then.
LINK
The point was this was maybe the most famous trial in American history to that point, and it took place roughly 14 years prior to the drafting of the 14th Amendment. The author’s point is the drafters would have had that concept of allegiance in mind when drafting.
It’s an interesting article. I’ll give the link below. It’s from Slate which is left, so some people will refuse to even read or engage with it. I think it’s good to see how courts were interpreting this concept of allegiance back then.
LINK
Posted on 4/7/26 at 5:26 pm to SallysHuman
If you all did not notice, sfp put a little cover in one of his discussions indicating that if Thomas does not affirm his version of the law he is changing the constitution.
While I am not convinced the court has the stones to read the constitution to remove citizenship from millions and millions, I do think a fair reading can lead to the conclusion that those here illegally are not giving birth to citizens.
While I am not convinced the court has the stones to read the constitution to remove citizenship from millions and millions, I do think a fair reading can lead to the conclusion that those here illegally are not giving birth to citizens.
Posted on 4/7/26 at 5:28 pm to nealnan8
quote:Perhaps you did not read the OP.
That's not what "subject to the jurisdiction" means.
Perhaps you lack comprehension skills to understand what you read.
Perhaps you are trolling.
Macht Nichts.
Words have changed meaning over time.
Here are a few examples:
Nice: Originally meant "ignorant," "stupid," or "foolish" in Middle English, derived from the Latin nescius ("not knowing").
Bully: In the 16th century, this meant "sweetheart," "darling," or a loved one. Later it meant a "hired ruffian," before adopting its current meaning of someone who hurts others.
Awful: Originally meant "full of awe" or "awe-inspiring," often used to describe something majestic or terrifying. It has shifted to mean "very bad".
Egregious: Once meant "distinguished" or "eminent" (from Latin egregius "illustrious," literally "out of the flock"). It now means "conspicuously bad".
Gay: Traditionally meant "carefree," "bright," or "showy," but from the mid-20th century onwards, it almost exclusively refers to homosexual.
Clue: Originally spelled "clew," it meant a "ball of thread or yarn." It shifted to its current meaning of "evidence" or "hint" due to the Greek myth of Theseus and the Minotaur, where a thread was used to navigate a labyrinth.
Artificial: Originally meant "full of artistic skill," relating to art or craftsmanship. It now usually implies "fake" or "man-made".
Fantastic: Originally meant "conceived in the imagination" or "fanciful." It now generally means "wonderful" or "fabulous".
Decimate: Historically, this verb meant to kill one-tenth (usually of a population, particularly in Roman army punishment). Today, it means to destroy a large portion of something.
Literally: Originally meant "in a strict sense" or "exactly," but now commonly used as a filler for emphasis, even when not literally true.
Spinster: Originally referred to a woman who spun thread or yarn, rather than a person's marital status.
Girl: In Middle English, this word described a young person of either sex, while boys were sometimes called "knave girls".
Silly: Originally meant "blessed," "happy," or "innocent." It shifted over centuries to mean "weak," "foolish," and eventually "silly".
Meat: Used to refer to all food in general (e.g., "meat and drink"), not just animal flesh.
Fathom: Formerly meant "to encircle with one's arms".
Jurisdiction: In 19th-century international law, "jurisdiction" was more narrowly understood in terms of allegiance to a sovereign,
Posted on 4/7/26 at 6:20 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:Period language and meaning is important.
Words have changed meaning over time.
Here are a few examples:
Not that you read Shakespeare, or even know who he is/was, but understanding the language in its Elizabethan England meaning, makes Shakespeare's dialogue, and its double entendres, far more entertaining.
E.g.,
"If he be so, the desire of the man is to have the length of his little finger; but the length of his wit, nay, the height of his sword, hath no man to report of."
"If he be so, the desire of the man is to have the length of his little finger": This suggests that what the man (Falstaff) wants is only a tiny amount of honesty or virtue, "the length of his little finger."
"but the length of his wit, nay, the height of his sword, hath no man to report of":
The Boy is saying that no one can testify to Falstaff having any significant intelligence ("wit") or bravery/fighting ability ("height of his sword").
But in Elizabethan times "wit" was also a reference to the particular male anatomy contained within a cod-piece ... “the length of a man’s wit” and "height of his sword" left Shakespeare's audiences holding their sides in hysterics.
Likewise:
HAMLET I could interpret between you and your love,
if I could see the puppets dallying.
OPHELIA You are keen, my lord, you are keen.
HAMLET It would cost you a groaning to take off mine
edge.
OPHELIA Still better and worse.
As the audience settles to watch "The Mousetrap" (Hamlet's play-within-a-play), Hamlet lies at Ophelia's feet and comments,"I could interpret between you and your love, if I could see the puppets dallying." This means he could provide the dialogue ("interpret") for her and her lover if they were acting like lovers ("dallying"). But in Elizabethan times, "interpreting" was slang for "pimping."
In Elizabethan English, "keen" typically means sharp, eager, or quick-witted. However in the same vernacular, keen had a sexual connotation (turned on). In Hamlet it's used as a pun, meaning that an "edge" (erection) is sharp or piercing.
Pretty funny stuff really.
This post was edited on 4/7/26 at 6:23 pm
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