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Big Men

Posted on 4/4/26 at 10:24 pm
Posted by Primeminister337
Member since Apr 2016
657 posts
Posted on 4/4/26 at 10:24 pm
It’s crazy to me how dumb some ppl on here are when they argue that Big men don’t matter, yet they sit here and watch final four and act like the final four hasn’t been dominated by bigs. Not just this year, but at least the last 5-7 years.
Posted by HailHailtoMichigan!
Mission Viejo, CA
Member since Mar 2012
73964 posts
Posted on 4/4/26 at 10:26 pm to
“March madness is won by guards” isnt true anymore. It hasn’t been true for close to a decade when these big men with shooting ability arrived onto the scene.
Posted by Primeminister337
Member since Apr 2016
657 posts
Posted on 4/4/26 at 10:28 pm to
Your 100 percent right, protecting the paint, extra possessions, 2nd chance points
Posted by chRxis
None of your fricking business
Member since Feb 2008
27776 posts
Posted on 4/4/26 at 10:54 pm to
quote:

“March madness is won by guards” isnt true anymore

dunno... Walter Clayton Jr at Florida seemed to be pretty impactful..
Posted by theCAW
Polk County
Member since Dec 2023
8756 posts
Posted on 4/4/26 at 10:58 pm to
quote:

Walter Clayton Jr at Florida seemed to be pretty impactful..
and will Richard ( currently a starter on the gs warriors) and Elijah Martin (currently playing for the raptors)

We did have 3 key bigs: chinleyu, Condon and Haugh as well though but the guard play was what took us to the title win, as Condon played pretty poorly in the tourney last year
This post was edited on 4/4/26 at 11:02 pm
Posted by Madking
Member since Apr 2016
69450 posts
Posted on 4/4/26 at 10:59 pm to
You need both, bigs are more rare.
Posted by theCAW
Polk County
Member since Dec 2023
8756 posts
Posted on 4/4/26 at 11:01 pm to
quote:

You need both, bigs are more rare.
completely agree
Posted by inadaze
Member since Aug 2010
5225 posts
Posted on 4/4/26 at 11:17 pm to
It's really a flawed starting premise. Guards and bigs are needed to win, to varying extents. It's about being a complete team. And it's going to look somewhat different from year to year.
Florida is a good example as a counter to the OP, though. They returned their main frontcourt players from the Championship team -- Condon, Haugh, Chinyelu. They lost the guards -- Clayton Jr., Martin, Richard.
Posted by Madking
Member since Apr 2016
69450 posts
Posted on 4/4/26 at 11:26 pm to
Florida’s loss was pretty fluky though. Worst game of Chinyelu’s career and Lee not only missed a layup all by himself but in the last possession gets all the way to the rim and makes the stupid decision to pass the ball with no time left. And they still only lost by a point. If they win that game they’re in the final 4. They were the second best team this year.
Posted by inadaze
Member since Aug 2010
5225 posts
Posted on 4/4/26 at 11:57 pm to
I disagree with all that. Stirtz ran past the Florida pressure easily to set up the game-winning shot. (This really highlights the importance of guards late in games.) Then Lee tried to make a play, but Iowa's defense was solid. Not a "fluke".
This post was edited on 4/4/26 at 11:58 pm
Posted by Madking
Member since Apr 2016
69450 posts
Posted on 4/5/26 at 12:11 am to
Lee got all the way to the basket then tried to pass the ball with no time to do so, a Webber like mistake.
This post was edited on 4/5/26 at 12:35 am
Posted by inadaze
Member since Aug 2010
5225 posts
Posted on 4/5/26 at 6:14 pm to
You went back to 1993 to again highlight the importance of guards. Ideally, you want a guard bringing that ball up the floor. But those plays were not really similar.
Webber had 19 seconds. Then the timeout call resulted in a technical that put the game completely out of reach for Michigan.
Lee had 4.5 seconds. He got down the court fast, but he just kind of got stuck because Iowa's defense was good.
Posted by Madking
Member since Apr 2016
69450 posts
Posted on 4/5/26 at 6:30 pm to
WTF are you talking about? It was a boneheaded play so I referenced the most famous boneheaded play in F4 history. It had zero to do with either players position. As far as spinning the play into him not being able to get a shot off, that’s both incorrect and irrelevant.
This post was edited on 4/5/26 at 6:31 pm
Posted by inadaze
Member since Aug 2010
5225 posts
Posted on 4/5/26 at 6:56 pm to
quote:

It had zero to do with either players position.


You may not have thought it through, but that's the context of the thread. And referencing that play highlights the importance of guards.
There was no spin. It just wasn't a good reference for any point you're trying to make.
Posted by Madking
Member since Apr 2016
69450 posts
Posted on 4/5/26 at 7:07 pm to
lol no it isn’t and yes you did. If I’d have referenced Fred Brown instead you’d have spun it some other way but the reference had zero to do with positions. It was about fluky and abnormally poor decisions.
This post was edited on 4/5/26 at 7:11 pm
Posted by inadaze
Member since Aug 2010
5225 posts
Posted on 4/5/26 at 9:37 pm to
quote:

the reference had zero to do with positions.


That's not your decision.
I know you think it is, but you don't actually control the parameters of analysis in a thread about how different positions are valued.
Even within your restricted parameters, it's not a good reference.
Posted by Madking
Member since Apr 2016
69450 posts
Posted on 4/5/26 at 9:54 pm to
Yes it is, you don’t get to tell me what I meant to say just because you didn’t understand it or you can’t refute it. I even gave you an alternate example with a guard but you ignored it because you can’t refute the point.
This post was edited on 4/5/26 at 9:57 pm
Posted by inadaze
Member since Aug 2010
5225 posts
Posted on 4/5/26 at 10:10 pm to
You've got it backwards. In no way am I trying to tell you what you meant. I'm telling you what the implications of the reference are in a thread about different positions.
The adage that "guards win in March" is repeated so much because of their value late in games. The 1993 reference highlights that. Analysis of a reference doesn't stop at what you decide the meaning to be. This is obvious, and we don't need to keep going with it.
You think Lee's play is on the level of Webber's. I disagree, and gave you my reasons. We'll just have to agree to disagree.
Posted by Madking
Member since Apr 2016
69450 posts
Posted on 4/5/26 at 10:18 pm to
Totally irrelevant to my comment which was about a mental mistake and has zero to do with position. I only used that one because it is the most famous but the Fred Brown example is equally as good yet you continue to pretend I didn’t bring it up. Your argument that Lee didn’t make a mistake is absurd, he made multiple mistakes on the play.
This post was edited on 4/5/26 at 10:21 pm
Posted by inadaze
Member since Aug 2010
5225 posts
Posted on 4/6/26 at 12:06 am to
quote:

zero to do with position.


As you meant it. But again, and I realize this is hard for you to grasp, analysis doesn't begin and end with your reasoning for the reference.

We don't need a list of gaffes here. The 1982 reference is on the level of the Webber play in terms of historic blunders. That I'll agree with. But the Lee play is not on the level of those.
With the 1982 and 1993 plays, those guys had plenty of time, but blundered it at critical points of the game.
Lee had less time than Tyus Edney in 1995. Edney's shot would have to be on a list of all-time best tournament buzzer beaters.
Had Lee made a play in 4.5, it would've been considered a great play. That he wasn't able to doesn't make it a "blunder" similar to your references. Was it a good play? No. But also not a historic blunder.
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