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Started By
Message

For all those poorly misguided do-it-yourselfers
Posted on 2/13/09 at 11:30 am
Posted on 2/13/09 at 11:30 am
I could not sit by and watch idly while the lemmings called do-it-yourselfers are hurdling your collective financial futures off the cliff…..
Tirebiter, COL, jersey tiger and fizzle (or shizzle) this is dedicated fully for your delight…
I am sure you have access to such wonderful fiancial rags as thestreet.com or even better the motley fool, heck you might even get money magazine!!!! Well I read the New England Journal of Medicine once, but that don’t make me a doctor! And even giving the aforementioned financial journals the status of the New England Journal is a joke, it would be more comparable to reading Men’s Health and thinking you are a GI doctor because you read an article on firming your abs….
Please do not let the facts get in the way of a good story. As I read your posts a Voltaire saying comes to mind: “A witty saying proves nothing.” I watch as you personally attack Amsterdam as he provides you with solid data (some of which I provided him so I can verify the accuracy), and some hate him for his chosen profession. Why? Because he makes an honest living, risked everything, started from nothing, became a success and is living the American dream. Meanwhile you who sit in a job you probably hate, earning your safe dependable salary, not risking anything all the while complaining on a chat board about somebody’s character you don’t even know? Do not debate the man, debate the issue. Nuff Said!
If you think that DIY strategy for investing works, then check out the morning star report about the actual dollar weighted return of individual investors versus the actual rate of return of a mutual fund:
LINK
Basically investors lose out regularly because the get in an out instead of sticking with a strategy (oh by the way indexing is not a strategy just like hope is not a course of action, but will address that later). The investor returns are the actual returns from individual investors in any chosen mutual fund (type in the symbol of your favorite) during the past years. Amazingly the actual fund performance beats the individual returns because all the DIY guys invest with their guts and misinformed research instead of using a solid strategy with *gasp* help from a financial professional. Notice I said professional, not some guy who spent four years as a peon in a hedge fund or some guy who knows a guy who made money day trading!!!!
The real reason you DIY guys lose money is found below:
LINK
By missing the 10 best days in the last 10 yrs in the market you less than half your return. By missing the 20 best days in the last 10 yrs you actually compound you money in a negative direction!! Do any of you think your crystal ball is soooo correct to guess the 10 or 20 best days out of the 2500 plus days the market is open for trading during a 10 yr period. If so you would be so wealthy you would not be posting advice for free on tiger droppings. The market only has a few truly great days, and they usually happen when the DIY guys are sidelined because they are waiting for the market to get healthy again. If you look at the trading volume of buys to sells versus the market direction you will see the herd is wrong every time. The highest ratio of sells is always when the market is down and the highest volume of buys is when the market is up. Say it with me people buy LOW sell High. So why not buy when the market is down??? Fear. Why do I need a financial professional??? To prevent me form making emotional decisions with my money. Why don’t surgeons operate on their family??? Emotions. Why operate on the most emotional thing you have, your assets??? I don’t have that answer.
When should I get back in the market you ask??? Yesterday. If you use mutual funds with a clearly defined purpose as per prospectus (not indexes) you could be accumulating extra shares in the form of dividend reinvestment and year end capital gain distributions, especially while the shares are cheap because the market is down. That way when the market returns you are far far far ahead of the game. When I read how tirebiter can’t understand how a mutual has a positive return while its price is down, I cringe like nails on a chalkboard. Owning mutual funds is about accumulating shares, not absolute price. If you owned say 100 shares at $10 you have a $1000 account. Now lets say you reinvest dividends and capital gains for 10 yrs and have accumulated 50 extra shares (not unreasonable with a quality dividend paying mutual fund) over that time frame and now have a total of 150 shares. Now let’s say the market value of said fund is down 30%, to $7/share- your account is now worth $1050 in a down market. Your account is now worth more in a seriously down market. Did that just happen? Now instead imagined you listened to the wizened COL and bought some great index fund that also went down 30%. By the time that index goes back to even the other mutual funds will be vastly ahead because of dividends and cap gains, two things most indexed lack severely. What scares me most about the DIY crowd is most of them don’t even understand the most basic principle of the investment vehicle they own. If you don’t understand the simple things that you certainly don’t understand the complex things like taxation, or even tactical allocations or portfolio strategy.
As far as indexing as an investment strategy, well Peter Griffin said it best…. “Ouch… Ouch.” I can see it now, the guys who invented the index strategy must have had a conversation that went something like this…”We’ll tell people they could buy things that look like the index, so they’ll feel safe, but we’ll take our fees off the top so it never really has the return of the index.. Yeah Yeah, and it will be easy cause there is no research involved. And people will love us cause they will get totally mediocre returns cause most of the stocks that make it into the indexes are soooo bloated you missed the elevator on the run up to make it into the index, but at least they did not pay a lot.” You gripe about amsterdam’s fund choices because he has exposure to fixed income devices inside them and whine why the comparisons are not fair….Well no one makes you buy an index. You can go get a fund programmed to your specific needs that has great performance, but you can’t get that in indexes. But hey it doesn’t cost much, but some book by some guy said it sounded good.
I see DIY guys all the time, usually when they are retired and don’t have enough money to live on, or in down markets when they are crying over spilled milk. Too late then jack...
Glad we had this talk!
Tirebiter, COL, jersey tiger and fizzle (or shizzle) this is dedicated fully for your delight…
I am sure you have access to such wonderful fiancial rags as thestreet.com or even better the motley fool, heck you might even get money magazine!!!! Well I read the New England Journal of Medicine once, but that don’t make me a doctor! And even giving the aforementioned financial journals the status of the New England Journal is a joke, it would be more comparable to reading Men’s Health and thinking you are a GI doctor because you read an article on firming your abs….
Please do not let the facts get in the way of a good story. As I read your posts a Voltaire saying comes to mind: “A witty saying proves nothing.” I watch as you personally attack Amsterdam as he provides you with solid data (some of which I provided him so I can verify the accuracy), and some hate him for his chosen profession. Why? Because he makes an honest living, risked everything, started from nothing, became a success and is living the American dream. Meanwhile you who sit in a job you probably hate, earning your safe dependable salary, not risking anything all the while complaining on a chat board about somebody’s character you don’t even know? Do not debate the man, debate the issue. Nuff Said!
If you think that DIY strategy for investing works, then check out the morning star report about the actual dollar weighted return of individual investors versus the actual rate of return of a mutual fund:
LINK
Basically investors lose out regularly because the get in an out instead of sticking with a strategy (oh by the way indexing is not a strategy just like hope is not a course of action, but will address that later). The investor returns are the actual returns from individual investors in any chosen mutual fund (type in the symbol of your favorite) during the past years. Amazingly the actual fund performance beats the individual returns because all the DIY guys invest with their guts and misinformed research instead of using a solid strategy with *gasp* help from a financial professional. Notice I said professional, not some guy who spent four years as a peon in a hedge fund or some guy who knows a guy who made money day trading!!!!
The real reason you DIY guys lose money is found below:
LINK
By missing the 10 best days in the last 10 yrs in the market you less than half your return. By missing the 20 best days in the last 10 yrs you actually compound you money in a negative direction!! Do any of you think your crystal ball is soooo correct to guess the 10 or 20 best days out of the 2500 plus days the market is open for trading during a 10 yr period. If so you would be so wealthy you would not be posting advice for free on tiger droppings. The market only has a few truly great days, and they usually happen when the DIY guys are sidelined because they are waiting for the market to get healthy again. If you look at the trading volume of buys to sells versus the market direction you will see the herd is wrong every time. The highest ratio of sells is always when the market is down and the highest volume of buys is when the market is up. Say it with me people buy LOW sell High. So why not buy when the market is down??? Fear. Why do I need a financial professional??? To prevent me form making emotional decisions with my money. Why don’t surgeons operate on their family??? Emotions. Why operate on the most emotional thing you have, your assets??? I don’t have that answer.
When should I get back in the market you ask??? Yesterday. If you use mutual funds with a clearly defined purpose as per prospectus (not indexes) you could be accumulating extra shares in the form of dividend reinvestment and year end capital gain distributions, especially while the shares are cheap because the market is down. That way when the market returns you are far far far ahead of the game. When I read how tirebiter can’t understand how a mutual has a positive return while its price is down, I cringe like nails on a chalkboard. Owning mutual funds is about accumulating shares, not absolute price. If you owned say 100 shares at $10 you have a $1000 account. Now lets say you reinvest dividends and capital gains for 10 yrs and have accumulated 50 extra shares (not unreasonable with a quality dividend paying mutual fund) over that time frame and now have a total of 150 shares. Now let’s say the market value of said fund is down 30%, to $7/share- your account is now worth $1050 in a down market. Your account is now worth more in a seriously down market. Did that just happen? Now instead imagined you listened to the wizened COL and bought some great index fund that also went down 30%. By the time that index goes back to even the other mutual funds will be vastly ahead because of dividends and cap gains, two things most indexed lack severely. What scares me most about the DIY crowd is most of them don’t even understand the most basic principle of the investment vehicle they own. If you don’t understand the simple things that you certainly don’t understand the complex things like taxation, or even tactical allocations or portfolio strategy.
As far as indexing as an investment strategy, well Peter Griffin said it best…. “Ouch… Ouch.” I can see it now, the guys who invented the index strategy must have had a conversation that went something like this…”We’ll tell people they could buy things that look like the index, so they’ll feel safe, but we’ll take our fees off the top so it never really has the return of the index.. Yeah Yeah, and it will be easy cause there is no research involved. And people will love us cause they will get totally mediocre returns cause most of the stocks that make it into the indexes are soooo bloated you missed the elevator on the run up to make it into the index, but at least they did not pay a lot.” You gripe about amsterdam’s fund choices because he has exposure to fixed income devices inside them and whine why the comparisons are not fair….Well no one makes you buy an index. You can go get a fund programmed to your specific needs that has great performance, but you can’t get that in indexes. But hey it doesn’t cost much, but some book by some guy said it sounded good.
I see DIY guys all the time, usually when they are retired and don’t have enough money to live on, or in down markets when they are crying over spilled milk. Too late then jack...
Glad we had this talk!
Posted on 2/13/09 at 11:35 am to wampawampa
quote:
Did that just happen? Now instead imagined you listened to the wizened COL and bought some great index fund that also went down 30%. By the time that index goes back to even the other mutual funds will be vastly ahead because of dividends and cap gains, two things most indexed lack severely.
AGTHX (managed fund) yield 1.21%
VTSMX (index fund) yield 2.93%
FAIL
Posted on 2/13/09 at 11:35 am to wampawampa
20 pages and man, is it going to be fun.
Posted on 2/13/09 at 11:36 am to wampawampa
tl; dr.
I would note that your links do not support your assertions at all.
I would note that your links do not support your assertions at all.
Posted on 2/13/09 at 11:37 am to Tiger JJ
quote:
20 pages and man, is it going to be fun.
You have a strange idea of fun. It's more likely to be 20 pages of this: "Look, here's why you're wrong [links to evidence]" "Nuh-uh."
Posted on 2/13/09 at 11:39 am to wampawampa
THAT JUST HAPPENED!!!
wampawampa just did it!
The perfect post!
Welcome to the board!

wampawampa just did it!
The perfect post!
Welcome to the board!
Posted on 2/13/09 at 11:39 am to wampawampa
Growth fund of America vs. S+P 500 vs. DJIA:
Besides a slight jump in the middle of 2003, it mirrors the index. I wouldn't mind investing in a managed fund if it was smaller and able to move in/out of positions easily. The problem with some funds is that they get so big, it basically mimics the index. And this for a 5% loading cost?
Besides a slight jump in the middle of 2003, it mirrors the index. I wouldn't mind investing in a managed fund if it was smaller and able to move in/out of positions easily. The problem with some funds is that they get so big, it basically mimics the index. And this for a 5% loading cost?
This post was edited on 2/13/09 at 11:41 am
Posted on 2/13/09 at 11:42 am to wampawampa
I know this do it yourselfer is kicking himself for jumping out of equities at Dow 13.8K.... frick if I just paid you lumps some money I can have ridden that bad boy all the way down
Posted on 2/13/09 at 11:42 am to wampawampa
quote:
Now instead imagined you listened to the wizened COL and bought some great index fund that also went down 30%.
I would note that I didn't recommend it, I gave it to amsterdam as a benchmark for his picks. We'll see how he does.
This particular DIYer beat the market by 45% in his retirement accounts and by over 200% in his taxable account. How would your picks have done for me last year?
Posted on 2/13/09 at 11:43 am to Tiger JJ
quote:
20 pages and man, is it going to be fun.
You're off, quickly scanning the motley fool and/or thestreet.com for your scathing rebuttal, I take it?
Posted on 2/13/09 at 11:45 am to Colonel Hapablap
quote:
This particular DIYer beat the market by 45% in his retirement accounts and by over 200% in his taxable account. How would your picks have done for me last year?
500% returns on my play money in 2008
Posted on 2/13/09 at 11:45 am to wampawampa
quote:
I watch as you personally attack Amsterdam as he provides you with solid data (some of which I provided him so I can verify the accuracy),
Well as long as it is from you
Posted on 2/13/09 at 11:45 am to Y.A. Tittle
Jersey is a big fan of Motley Fool, but I prefer Mad Money. We are constantly having this argument.
Posted on 2/13/09 at 11:46 am to wampawampa
quote:
Notice I said professional, not some guy who spent four years as a peon in a hedge fund
Man you really are throwing down the gauntlet.
What's your cv if I might ask?
Posted on 2/13/09 at 11:48 am to Ric Flair
I dont know why you think the only fund out there is agthx, which is growth fund of america. I say again a growth fund, one that is not invested in for yield rather growth. but hey at least you tried. also 5 yrs not significant enough time frame. i am not here to cherry pick funds, just demonstrate how balanced portfolios will outperform indexes and how DIY method is you own worst enemy.
Cous Cous i feel bad I left you out of the opening of my first reply but the link do prove the point, if they dont let me know how.
Cous Cous i feel bad I left you out of the opening of my first reply but the link do prove the point, if they dont let me know how.
Posted on 2/13/09 at 11:50 am to wampawampa
quote:
Well I read the New England Journal of Medicine once, but that don’t make me a doctor!
So using the doctor analogy, I'd say that this is why I stay away from the Edward Jones types.
Do you have an undergrad degree and a PhD in some sort of financial discipline?
So why can someone do an apprenticeship under another Edward Jones guy, cold call a bunch of people, take a few courses, and call themselves professionals?
Posted on 2/13/09 at 11:50 am to Colonel Hapablap
quote:I say you're both idoits and I get my weekly picks from the USA Today's Sunday Financial section "recommended stocks"
Jersey is a big fan of Motley Fool, but I prefer Mad Money. We are constantly having this argument.
Posted on 2/13/09 at 11:51 am to wampawampa
I do enjoy the irony of you posting a blog talking about how chasing past performance is bad, while your little apprentice spent pages using such past performance to support his bogus thesis. Carry on, I love the entertainment... hopefully you are a real estate agent too!
Posted on 2/13/09 at 11:51 am to wampawampa
Out of curiosity, when was the first time you heard about the following terms (if you have):
Collateralized Debt Obligation
Credit Default Swap
Asset Backed Security
Tranche
Securitize
Monoline Insurer
Thanks.
Collateralized Debt Obligation
Credit Default Swap
Asset Backed Security
Tranche
Securitize
Monoline Insurer
Thanks.
Posted on 2/13/09 at 11:51 am to wampawampa
quote:
also 5 yrs not significant enough time frame.
Why not? What if someone bought it 5 years ago? It's a perfectly relevant time frame for them.
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