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Why CASH is a BAD investment right now

Posted on 2/6/09 at 3:18 pm
Posted by amsterdam
In His Word
Member since Jul 2008
1036 posts
Posted on 2/6/09 at 3:18 pm
Since I have been on the board, I am shocked at how many people believe that switching to cash, and/or trying to time the market is a sound if not preferred market strategy. I think cash can be useful in your portfolio, but only for specific purposes and not as a strategy. My argument becomes stronger the longer your investment time horizon. I know certain members of this board will not take my word for it(debating you guys is more fun anyway) So I have compiled a list of statistics to back my side of the argument. Also since you guys are so in love with the SP500, I will use that as my example

Bears vs. Bulls

SP500 had 8 bear markets from 1946 - 2007

The avg. Bull lasted 2.7 years
The avg. Bears lasted 0.7 years
The growth of a $10,000 investment in the SP500 in '46 had reached a value of $9,009,485 by '07
...but only for those buy and hold, long term investors. Had you tried to be smarter than the market and gone to cash...well not so much

Timing the market

Scholars recently estimated that from 1926-1993 any investor had a 0.00000000000000000000000000000000000
0000000000000000000000000000000000000
0000000000000000000000000000000000000
0000000000000000000000000000000000000
0000000000000000000000000000000000000
0000000000000000000000000000000000000
000000000000000000000022883557% chance of timing the market correctly all of the time.
Thats 242 zero's before the number, and yes I tripled checked its accuracy.
Not saying you cant do it, Im just saying its probably not going to happen

The problem however is that some people try to do just that. Historically a bull markets best gains have been in the beginning.
So there are considerably penalties for being in cash at the wrong time, even if you miss it by a couple of days.
Consider This:
SP500 Total returns from 1925-2007

Market Index - all months - 10.3%
exclude best 5 months - 8.4%
exclude best 10 months - 7.5%
exclude best 20 months - 5.3%
exclude best 40 months - 3.6%

SP500 Total returns from 1977 - 2007

Market Index - all days - 12.8%
exclude best 10 days - 10.8%
exclude best 20 days - 9.4%
exclude best 40 days - 6.8%
exclude best 50 days - 5.8%

I guess if you can acurately predict the best days then you shouldnt worry about this, but statistically I dont think that going to happen.
For me Id rather not take the chance, stick to time tested investment principles, and reap the rewards.

Timing the market and moving in and out of cash doesnt work, no matter what your charts tell you. Even if your literally days behind recognizing that fact, you will be seriously penalized for it.

The market will get thru this, it always does. For those that stuck with a disciplined investment strategy you will be stronger for it


This post was edited on 2/6/09 at 3:21 pm
Posted by Meauxjeaux
102836 posts including my alters
Member since Jun 2005
45861 posts
Posted on 2/6/09 at 3:23 pm to
I imagine 07-09 skewers the statistics somewhat.
Posted by MileHigh
Most likely a mile high
Member since Jan 2004
7920 posts
Posted on 2/6/09 at 3:26 pm to
quote:


Since I have been on the board, I am shocked at how many people believe that switching to cash, and/or trying to time the market is a sound if not preferred market strategy. I think cash can be useful in your portfolio, but only for specific purposes and not as a strategy. My argument becomes stronger the longer your investment time horizon. I know certain members of this board will not take my word for it(debating you guys is more fun anyway) So I have compiled a list of statistics to back my side of the argument. Also since you guys are so in love with the SP500, I will use that as my example

How about you sell me some put options, say SPY @80, we can make them european dated (i.e. expiry exercise only). I will pay you $1 per contract, epxiry date is Dec 1, 2010. I will take any date beyond Dec 1, 2009, and up till 2019

Posted by TigerinATL
Member since Feb 2005
62446 posts
Posted on 2/6/09 at 3:30 pm to
Give us a little background info please. Just a hobbyist who handles his own investments, or something in the financial industry? Trying to see where you're coming from
Posted by Parliament
Member since Dec 2007
5787 posts
Posted on 2/6/09 at 3:32 pm to
quote:

I imagine 07-09 skewers the statistics somewhat.


I imagine 3/00 to now skewers it worse. Going back to 1982 (or the end of that recession, whenever that was) still looks pretty good, even taking into account the last decade.

quote:

amsterdam


You fail to take into account the tremendous market expertise on this board. Prepare for your own skewering.
Posted by Colonel Hapablap
Mostly Harmless
Member since Nov 2003
28791 posts
Posted on 2/6/09 at 3:33 pm to
he's a commissioned financial advisor. Obviously.
Posted by GaryOwen
Member since Nov 2008
190 posts
Posted on 2/6/09 at 3:33 pm to
How long will it take to make up my 25% loss for 2008 using a buy and hold strategy?

That's what I thought.
Posted by kfizzle85
Member since Dec 2005
22022 posts
Posted on 2/6/09 at 3:33 pm to
Being in CASH and tossing money into a mutual fund to DCA are two completely different things.
Posted by Colonel Hapablap
Mostly Harmless
Member since Nov 2003
28791 posts
Posted on 2/6/09 at 3:33 pm to
yeah, notice that he starts all of his statistics AFTER the depression as well. talk about skew.
Posted by kfizzle85
Member since Dec 2005
22022 posts
Posted on 2/6/09 at 3:34 pm to
to my double post.
This post was edited on 2/6/09 at 3:42 pm
Posted by MileHigh
Most likely a mile high
Member since Jan 2004
7920 posts
Posted on 2/6/09 at 3:35 pm to
is there an echo in here?
Posted by MileHigh
Most likely a mile high
Member since Jan 2004
7920 posts
Posted on 2/6/09 at 3:36 pm to
is there an echo in here?
Posted by Colonel Hapablap
Mostly Harmless
Member since Nov 2003
28791 posts
Posted on 2/6/09 at 3:51 pm to
Can you do a similar analysis on the Nikkei? Thanks.
Posted by Cash
Vail
Member since Feb 2005
37586 posts
Posted on 2/6/09 at 3:54 pm to
quote:

he's a commissioned financial advisor. Obviously.


I just briefed through his post history.
Posted by MileHigh
Most likely a mile high
Member since Jan 2004
7920 posts
Posted on 2/6/09 at 3:57 pm to
quote:

he's a commissioned financial advisor. Obviously.

I just briefed through his post history.

Give the guy a break. I mean, I don't agree with him. But his argument does have some merit.

Historically he was correct. But we are at inflection point in history (like GD, Civil war, collapse of brettonwood, etc). Things are going to change, it takes foresight and risk to capitalize on it, and not to be capitalized.
Posted by Colonel Hapablap
Mostly Harmless
Member since Nov 2003
28791 posts
Posted on 2/6/09 at 4:00 pm to
At first it was funny, but it's starting to get sad. I bet this dude has hundreds of clients who all rely on him to tell them the shite he's telling us. And I honestly don't think he's being malicious. He actually BELIEVES what he's saying. He's been so brainwashed by the industry that he can't even think straight any more. You give him reasoned argument after reasoned argument, blow up anything and everything that he says, and his comebacks are "u r wrong" and "look at these statistics that I got from American Funds!" He's like fricking Neo in The Matrix before he takes the red pill.
Posted by MileHigh
Most likely a mile high
Member since Jan 2004
7920 posts
Posted on 2/6/09 at 4:07 pm to
quote:

At first it was funny, but it's starting to get sad. I bet this dude has hundreds of clients who all rely on him to tell them the shite he's telling us.

Again, from 1980 to 1999, this would have been good advice. So there is a track record of success there.
quote:

He's been so brainwashed by the industry that he can't even think straight any more.

Its very hard to break free from the mind grip. I can't seem to let go of my hatred of christianity.

Pushing him too hard will not get him to relent, it will just force re-trenchment. The best strategy is to let the results re-adjust his mindset.
quote:

He's like fricking Neo in The Matrix before he takes the red pill.

Well, he does come off as a retard.
Posted by Colonel Hapablap
Mostly Harmless
Member since Nov 2003
28791 posts
Posted on 2/6/09 at 4:09 pm to
quote:

Again, from 1980 to 1999, this would have been good advice. So there is a track record of success there.


This is my favorite. a 20 data point track record as a basis for all future actions.
Posted by Parliament
Member since Dec 2007
5787 posts
Posted on 2/6/09 at 4:13 pm to
quote:

But we are at inflection point in history (like GD, Civil war, collapse of brettonwood, etc). Things are going to change, it takes foresight and risk to capitalize on it, and not to be capitalized.


Did yo think that up pre-bong hit or post-bong hit?
Posted by MileHigh
Most likely a mile high
Member since Jan 2004
7920 posts
Posted on 2/6/09 at 4:17 pm to
quote:



Did yo think that up pre-bong hit or post-bong hit?

pre

I will say I have been saying this for 20 years though.
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