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Started By
Message
re: SCOTUS isn’t going to mess with immunity
Posted on 4/25/24 at 3:09 pm to The Boat
Posted on 4/25/24 at 3:09 pm to The Boat
quote:
"But the party convicted" will then..
The words "will then" are no where within that Constitutional provision. That amendment basically states that a party convicted can also be subject to criminal prosecution.
It says nothing about acquittal, which means the amendment was adopted with the framework of advising that acquittal or conviction of impeachment by Congress and the Senate have no bearing on a subsequent criminal prosecution after the impeachment process has concluded.
This post was edited on 4/25/24 at 3:13 pm
Posted on 4/25/24 at 3:10 pm to The Boat
quote:
It says "but the party convicted" right in the section you posted.
And?
quote:
but not before Congress decides on removal.
Where does it say this?
Posted on 4/25/24 at 3:12 pm to CreoleTigerEsq
quote:
That amendment basically states that party convicted can also be subject to criminal prosecution.
It says nothing about acquittal, which means the amendment was adopted with the framework of advising that acquittal or conviction of impeachment by Congress and the Senate have no bearing on a subsequent criminal prosecution after the impeachment process has concluded.
Exactly.
Manufacturing this impeachment-acquittal as a required step for criminal prosecution would be the biggest legislation from the bench and invention of Constitutional law since Roe v Wade.
Posted on 4/25/24 at 3:13 pm to SlowFlowPro
Call your shot on the ruling.
Posted on 4/25/24 at 3:18 pm to Rebel
What should happen is that a limited immunity for executive action is established, and it's sent back to the trial court for determinations on that issue (which would lead to another track back to the USSC).
I haven't listened to the oral arguments to make more of a guess as to what they will do. The Colorado case showed they will violate their maxims and answer questions not asked, due to the election. I'm not sure if they would do there here and what that would lead to.
I haven't listened to the oral arguments to make more of a guess as to what they will do. The Colorado case showed they will violate their maxims and answer questions not asked, due to the election. I'm not sure if they would do there here and what that would lead to.
Posted on 4/25/24 at 3:18 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
Exactly. Manufacturing this impeachment-acquittal as a required step for criminal prosecution would be the biggest legislation from the bench and invention of Constitutional law since Roe v Wade.
Meh it's severely poorly worded if your interpretation was the intent. Is there any contemporary discussions we can use to establish intent?
Posted on 4/25/24 at 3:20 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
Judgment in cases of impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any office of honor, trust or profit under the United States: but the party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to indictment, trial, judgment and punishment, according to law.
He would have to be impeached first.
Posted on 4/25/24 at 3:22 pm to SlowFlowPro
I realize your "attorney" schtick is to appear more knowledgeable about the law and the constitution than the rest of us but when you start spewing your non-stop word salad comments like you have in this thread you honestly just come across as a nerd.
Posted on 4/25/24 at 3:23 pm to LSURussian
quote:
but when you start spewing your non-stop word salad comments like you have in this thread you honestly just come across as a nerd.
He asked me a question. I gave an honest answer.
FYI, it wasn't "word salad"
Posted on 4/25/24 at 3:25 pm to SlowFlowPro
FYI, yes, it is, Kamala.
Posted on 4/25/24 at 3:26 pm to CreoleTigerEsq
quote:
It says nothing about acquittal, which means the amendment was adopted with the framework of advising that acquittal or conviction of impeachment by Congress and the Senate have no bearing on a subsequent criminal prosecution after the impeachment process has concluded.
Ignore the "party convicted" wording all you want. If a politician doesn't first have to be removed from office to lose immunity they wouldn't have included the "convicted party" wording. But you have esq in your username so it's safe to say you're an intellectually dishonest dumbass.
Posted on 4/25/24 at 3:28 pm to The Boat
quote:
If a politician doesn't first have to be removed from office to lose immunity they wouldn't have included the "convicted party" wording.
It's a clarification of Double Jeopardy, basically. That's why only the "convicted party" side was discussed.
There are no words to justify this connectivity between impeachment and criminality, and plenty to distinguish the 2 concepts.
Posted on 4/25/24 at 3:30 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
What should happen is that a limited immunity for executive action is established, and it's sent back to the trial court for determinations on that issue (which would lead to another track back to the USSC).
Limited immunity? Who decides? This would open an enormous can of worms. A president performs thousands of actions while in office. Whose gonna write the immunity laws?
Posted on 4/25/24 at 3:32 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
I gave an honest answer.
You did use a lot of words to say “I don’t know”.
I don’t know either. I really only listened to parts of ACB and Katanji.
I can 100% tell you how Katanji will vote. But no idea how the conservative judges will rule.
I do think they are taking the decision very serious.
If they rule he has to stand trial, FJB and every president after him will be prosecuted.
Posted on 4/25/24 at 3:34 pm to da prophet
The term we will hear is “ outer perimeter “ stemming from the language of the Nixon case. That will be the defacto determinant that responsible ( in other words not Democrats and other Stalinist) prosecutors will first have to determine.
Posted on 4/25/24 at 3:36 pm to da prophet
quote:
Limited immunity?
Yes
quote:
limited immunity for executive action
quote:
Who decides?
Already covered
quote:
and it's sent back to the trial court for determinations on that issue (which would lead to another track back to the USSC).
quote:
Whose gonna write the immunity laws?
It will likely be a test, with factors. They love those.
Posted on 4/25/24 at 3:37 pm to Turbeauxdog
quote:
Is there any contemporary discussions we can use to establish intent?
LINK
Third Paragraph:
The Senate’s power to convict and remove individuals from office, as well as to bar them from holding office in the future, does not overlap with criminal remedies for misconduct. Indeed, the unique nature of impeachment as a political remedy distinct from criminal proceedings ensures that the most powerful magistrates should be amenable to the law. 10 Rather than serving to police violations of strictly criminal activity, impeachment is a method of national inquest into the conduct of public men for the abuse or violation of some public trust. 11 Impeachable offenses are those that relate chiefly to injuries done immediately to the society itself.12 Put another way, the purpose of impeachment is to protect the public interest, rather than impose a punitive measure on an individual. 13
10 James Wilson, Lectures on Law, reprinted in, The Works of James Wilson 425–26 (1791).
This post was edited on 4/25/24 at 3:39 pm
Posted on 4/25/24 at 3:37 pm to Rebel
quote:
I can 100% tell you how Katanji will vote.
I don't. Not saying she'll rule for Trump fully, but I can't imagine there are many who reject at least a limited immunity for executive action.
Posted on 4/25/24 at 3:38 pm to CreoleTigerEsq
quote:
The Senate’s power to convict and remove individuals from office, as well as to bar them from holding office in the future, does not overlap with criminal remedies for misconduct. Indeed, the unique nature of impeachment as a political remedy distinct from criminal proceedings ensures that the most powerful magistrates should be amenable to the law. 10 Rather than serving to police violations of strictly criminal activity, impeachment is a method of national inquest into the conduct of public men for the abuse or violation of some public trust. 11 Impeachable offenses are those that relate chiefly to injuries done immediately to the society itself.12 Put another way, the purpose of impeachment is to protect the public interest, rather than impose a punitive measure on an individual.
\
Posted on 4/25/24 at 3:38 pm to Rebel
They won’t. And SFP’s prediction on what will happen is highly likely. They aren’t going to make new law from the bench.
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