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Started By
Message
re: Help me determine some Objective Truth
Posted on 2/28/24 at 1:10 pm to Prodigal Son
Posted on 2/28/24 at 1:10 pm to Prodigal Son
Thank you, too, brother.
Regarding SM... Yeah, I found it very interesting that his OP showed significant knowledge of the Bible (more than me, to be honest), but that he was skewing things (Elijah, Jesus, the Israelites) to force a point in an inaccurate way. Something seemed off, though I'm not familiar enough with him to know his game as you do. Still, it was one of those posts which grabbed me and I felt compelled to defend the Truth to my understanding-- even if only one person might see it, or even if it only helped me see refine my own thoughts on the matter.
I appreciate the 1 Peter 3:15 reference as well, which I was not aware of. As I admitted above, my knowledge of scripture is not as strong as SM, or yours / others here. Ironically, this place-- which now anchors and sometimes deletes religious threads-- is responsible for my deepest dive into the Bible. It was before your time (per your signup date of May'23... unless you're an alter *wink*).
Was about 2008/2009 when TulaneLSU, who was then a bit more fiery than his current idiom of starting every post addressing everyone as "friend", started a daily Bible thread with the intent of getting through all of it, in order, in a year. I was active in it everyday for the first several books, but work became insane and a couple weeks of near all nighters broke me down and I fell behind. I checked in from time to time, but never quite regained my footing as far as participating again. On a related topic, TulaneLSU's "Late Night Bible Study" daily thread on the OT was almost completely unobtrusive alongside the typical WYHI, music threads, car threads, etc. and averaged a modest 1-4 pages of replies most nights with only a couple of trolls. But some admin here who hated TulaneLSU eventually seemed to convince Chicken that the LNBS thread and all religious threads should be banned. They let him get right up to and maybe barely into the 4 gospels if I remember correctly. Then, they cut the rug out from under him and became intolerant of any religious threads. At first they deleted anything remotely religous. Now threads like this get the anchor and go mostly unseen.
Apologies for the history lesson. It's just always bothered me-- both my own failure to keep up at the time, and the admins unjustly shutting it all down. But in the spirit of 1 Peter 3:15 (though I did not know the passage itself), I've always felt inspired to reply in threads like these because the truth/Truth is important, and standing up to represent truth may be a duty, but I don't consider it a burden in the least. I appreciate it when the spirit moves me to reply since posters like you-- and even SM in his own way-- help me learn.
Regarding SM... Yeah, I found it very interesting that his OP showed significant knowledge of the Bible (more than me, to be honest), but that he was skewing things (Elijah, Jesus, the Israelites) to force a point in an inaccurate way. Something seemed off, though I'm not familiar enough with him to know his game as you do. Still, it was one of those posts which grabbed me and I felt compelled to defend the Truth to my understanding-- even if only one person might see it, or even if it only helped me see refine my own thoughts on the matter.
I appreciate the 1 Peter 3:15 reference as well, which I was not aware of. As I admitted above, my knowledge of scripture is not as strong as SM, or yours / others here. Ironically, this place-- which now anchors and sometimes deletes religious threads-- is responsible for my deepest dive into the Bible. It was before your time (per your signup date of May'23... unless you're an alter *wink*).
Was about 2008/2009 when TulaneLSU, who was then a bit more fiery than his current idiom of starting every post addressing everyone as "friend", started a daily Bible thread with the intent of getting through all of it, in order, in a year. I was active in it everyday for the first several books, but work became insane and a couple weeks of near all nighters broke me down and I fell behind. I checked in from time to time, but never quite regained my footing as far as participating again. On a related topic, TulaneLSU's "Late Night Bible Study" daily thread on the OT was almost completely unobtrusive alongside the typical WYHI, music threads, car threads, etc. and averaged a modest 1-4 pages of replies most nights with only a couple of trolls. But some admin here who hated TulaneLSU eventually seemed to convince Chicken that the LNBS thread and all religious threads should be banned. They let him get right up to and maybe barely into the 4 gospels if I remember correctly. Then, they cut the rug out from under him and became intolerant of any religious threads. At first they deleted anything remotely religous. Now threads like this get the anchor and go mostly unseen.
Apologies for the history lesson. It's just always bothered me-- both my own failure to keep up at the time, and the admins unjustly shutting it all down. But in the spirit of 1 Peter 3:15 (though I did not know the passage itself), I've always felt inspired to reply in threads like these because the truth/Truth is important, and standing up to represent truth may be a duty, but I don't consider it a burden in the least. I appreciate it when the spirit moves me to reply since posters like you-- and even SM in his own way-- help me learn.
2
Posted on 2/28/24 at 5:47 pm to epbart
quote:
even if only one person might see it, or even if it only helped me see refine my own thoughts on the matter.
Absolutely worth it- every time. I believe that the Holy Spirit does the work- but we are His tools. Sometimes, He’s using “us” to reach “them,” and sometimes the other way around.
quote:
I appreciate the 1 Peter 3:15 reference as well
You’re welcome!
Posted on 2/28/24 at 6:29 pm to epbart
quote:
even if only one person might see it, or even if it only helped me see refine my own thoughts on the matter.
Absolutely worth it- every time. I believe that the Holy Spirit does the work- but we are His tools. Sometimes, He’s using “us” to reach “them,” and sometimes the other way around.
quote:
I appreciate the 1 Peter 3:15 reference as well
You’re welcome!
quote:
As I admitted above, my knowledge of scripture is not as strong as SM, or yours / others here
I couldn’t tell.
Mine is nowhere near where it should be. I’ve only been back into it for a couple of years. The Lord has been using SM, and others, to motivate me. 
As for SM’s knowledge, I’m not sure that it’s as deep as it appears. First of all, the only reason he reads the Bible is to look for reasons to discredit it. And, I’m starting to think that he’s just regurgitating internet atheists’ talking points. quote:
unless you're an alter *wink*).
Not in the way that most, if not all others are. This is my second account. But I don’t use the old one. I started this one because I couldn’t reconcile my old user name with Christianity. 2 Corinthians 5:17 “Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.” quote:
Apologies for the history lesson
No need. I enjoyed it. I wish I could have participated. The fact that they shut that down, and continue to anchor religious threads, is very telling. What are they so afraid of? It is as Jesus said: John 3:20 (NASB95): 20 “For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.”
Though, it does seem that they have relaxed their CCP-like censorship over the past couple of years.
quote:
I appreciate it when the spirit moves me to reply since posters like you-- and even SM in his own way-- help me learn.
Amen to that! It’s nice to just have a conversation once in awhile. The constant bickering and misrepresentation gets old. Thank you for that.
Posted on 2/29/24 at 8:44 pm to Prodigal Son
quote:quote:Not necessarily. While it harkens back to times of punishment for disobedience, such as Egyptian slavery, and wandering the wilderness for 40 years; 6:16 is actually referencing Exodus 17:2-7
Ok, in the first examples, would you agree that Deuteronomy 6 is talking about that wrath and punishment thing you mentioned?
Yep that’s what I was referring to. Yahweh was saying don’t test me (in reference to exodus/wildnerness bitching and moaning).
quote:quote:Matthew 4, but yes.
Would you then agree that Jesus is quoting Deuteronomy 6 in Mark 4 and Luke 4?
Yes, my bad. I meant Matthew. Good, we agree on both of these things.
quote:
First , Satan tells Jesus to “throw yourself down.” Big difference between jumping (intentional) and falling (unintentional). That’s two different kinds of tests. Second, God is not commanding Jesus to jump- Satan is. What Satan is doing here, is similar to what the Israelites did at Massah, which is doubting God, and demanding that God perform some miracle in order to prove Himself. Which is why Jesus quoted Deuteronomy 6:16.
Ok, Jesus says don’t test god (in that fashion). Don’t put God on the spot to perform a miracle to prove himself. We agree on this too!
So Elijah does the exact thing Deuteronomy and Jesus says NOT to do. Elijah put God on the spot to perform a miracle to prove himself. God delights in what he has told others not to do, and proceeds to set the wet bull carcass on fire and suck up all the water.
Do you see the contradiction? Do you see how there is not an objective truth on this subject?
quote:
God then commanded Moses to strike the rock, and then water flowed from it.
Not exactly. He told Moses to take his staff and tell the rock to yield its water. He didn’t command Moses to strike the rock, but he didn’t tell Moses NOT to strike the rock either. But that didn’t stop that ambiguous a-hole Yahweh from punishing Moses - because he struck the rock with his staff (twice), he’d never be allowed to set foot in the promised land. Adonai would kill Moses before he was to cross the Jordan, after he had been a faithful servant to Yahweh ever since meeting him in the (burning) bush.
Posted on 2/29/24 at 9:16 pm to epbart
quote:
I see some in this thread suggesting you're just being a combative arse and will not argue in good faith. Since you replied to my response, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt.
Thanks. This forum is filled with Christians that don’t really believe in freedom of religion or thought, and perpetuate a double standard. An atheist expressing opinions is hateful and combative, (or as with Roger - anyone who disagrees with his beliefs is a closet homosexual
). A Christian of the particular belief of the one judging is being benevolent and just doing the Lord’s work. quote:
Do you understand this or is anything unclear?
Yes. Read my response to Prodigal Son, I think I have it covered with the test of the Israelites bitching about manna and lack of water versus Jesus and Elijah putting their faith in God by not testing him and by testing him, respectively.
quote:
The context of that part of Malachi is that the people were not fully committing to God (in their tithes). And if you are cheating in small things like tithes, you can't really say you're committed to God above worldly things, can you?
Ok, forget Malachi for a moment. Just use my example of Jesus versus Elijah.
I read the rest of your post. I just disagree with you on Elijah. I think it was a test. The same sort of thing Jesus said he would not do because he shall not test the LORD his God. The circumstances of the test were slightly different - catch Jesus from falling as a test of God, versus set the wet bull carcass on fire as a test of God. They are both tests.
You might disagree on my interpretation, but can you at least see that there are other rational and reasonable interpretations, and that the issue is not objective?
Posted on 2/29/24 at 9:23 pm to epbart
quote:
There's so many people now who say they might believe in God if they were given a sign or proof.
If something were evidently true, we’d have to acknowledge it, else we’d be delusional (like people who reject the evidently true theory of biological evolution of species). If something is true it’s true, whether we like it or not.
quote:
The Israelites in the desert suggest otherwise. Here are a group of people who supposedly witnessed miracle after miracle, gained their freedom, then when the going got hard, they spiritually wilted as much as most people do... and fell right back into sin. That won't cut it and that's why God tests us.
I think those are simply fabricated stories from someone’s imagination.
quote:
I have answered your questions at length and definitively. If you read it with sincerity, you'll see your errors and you'll see that I'm right in this case. I'm curious if you're man enough to admit you're wrong.
I’m not buying what you’re selling. You haven’t made a convincing case. Sorry
quote:
For my part, I enjoyed exercising my mind in this direction and writing this rebuttal out despite the length and time to do so. So thank you for helping me refine my arguments.
I enjoyed our discussion too.
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