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Started By
Message

There may be little to recover in the $300 billion Evergrande debt saga
Posted on 1/31/24 at 7:48 am
Posted on 1/31/24 at 7:48 am
quote:
China Evergrande — the world's most indebted property developer — received a liquidation order from a Hong Kong court on Monday, but there may be little left to recover, said experts.
The order came more than two years after Evergrande sent the country's property sector into a tailspin.
Liquidators will now take control of the company's assets and prepare to sell them in order to repay the company's debts, which total $300 billion.
An offshore investor named Top Shine Global brought the winding-up lawsuit against Evergrande in 2022. Its proceedings were adjourned multiple times as Evergrande sought more time to restructure its debts.
On Monday, Evergrande applied for another adjournment. But Judge Linda Chan said Evergrande had been unable to offer a concrete restructuring plan and ordered its liquidation.
"It is time for the court to say enough is enough," said Chan, according to Reuters.
quote:
Monday's court order is a far cry from Evergrande's heyday as China's top developer by sales in 2016.
Evergrande has been mired in a liquidity crisis since 2021. It first defaulted on an offshore dollar bond in December of that year. The company filed for bankruptcy protection in the US in August and scraped a restructuring plan in October due to worse-than-expected property sales.
quote:
That's particularly since the Chinese property sector is in the dumps amid sluggish demand and falling home prices — which means any sale of Evergrande's assets is likely to be at fire-sale prices, John Bringardner, the head of Debtwire, a fixed-income data and news provider, told BI in November.
"At this point in the process, there are only losers in the collapse of Evergrande," Bringardner added.
quote:
In July, Evergrande cited an analysis by Deloitte that estimated a recovery rate of 3.4% on its debt if the company is liquidated, per Reuters. Creditors now expect the recovery rate at less than 3%, according to the news agency.
Investors also appear to be out of luck, particularly if they're outside of China, and the process of getting their investments may take years.
LINK
Posted on 1/31/24 at 7:51 am to frequent flyer
Well that’s just too bad huh
This post was edited on 1/31/24 at 7:52 am
Posted on 1/31/24 at 8:02 am to frequent flyer
Someone explain this to me like I'm five.
Posted on 1/31/24 at 8:14 am to frequent flyer
China is in bad shape in a bad way. Biden killed them.
ETA: why the downvotes? Isn’t Biden responsible for every bad economic result since he’s been in office?
ETA: why the downvotes? Isn’t Biden responsible for every bad economic result since he’s been in office?
This post was edited on 1/31/24 at 8:29 am
Posted on 1/31/24 at 8:17 am to SlowFlowPro
This may not take them down right now but the ripple effect of people getting fricked on liquidation, other developers taking a hit due to industry problems caused by this, etc, is gonna be a bitch.
They aren’t going down the drain yet but they are circling it.
They aren’t going down the drain yet but they are circling it.
Posted on 1/31/24 at 8:17 am to frequent flyer
quote:
There may be little to recover in the $300 billion Evergrande debt saga
Has to be the slowest collapse in history, going on 3+ years.
Of course there's nothing to recover, plenty of time for the vultures to pick anything of remaining value.
Posted on 1/31/24 at 8:18 am to CocomoLSU
quote:
Someone explain this to me like I'm five.
I think any projections at this time are pure speculation.
I learned more about the real estate issues with this video. Its not just Evergrande.
Secret behind China's Ghost Cities
Its only about 13 minutes long and really helped me understand the situation.
This post was edited on 1/31/24 at 8:24 am
Posted on 1/31/24 at 8:25 am to frequent flyer
CalPERS really going to take it in the arse with this one.
I hope whoever is running that pension begs Newsome to let them mine that lithium otherwise that pension fund is going to go tits up.
I hope whoever is running that pension begs Newsome to let them mine that lithium otherwise that pension fund is going to go tits up.
Posted on 1/31/24 at 8:48 am to CocomoLSU
quote:
Someone explain this to me like I'm five.
In China investment options are limited so buying property became all the rage and Evergrande took on a lot of debt to build new property to sell but the bubble eventually collapsed and buyers have disappeared so Evergrande went broke.
Posted on 1/31/24 at 8:52 am to Diseasefreeforall
On top of that, Evergrande was taking payments for properties they haven’t even built yet and didn’t have the cash flow to start, so there’s not much “there” there to be distributed.
Posted on 1/31/24 at 8:54 am to Diseasefreeforall
quote:
In China investment options are limited so buying property became all the rage and Evergrande took on a lot of debt to build new property to sell but the bubble eventually collapsed and buyers have disappeared so Evergrande went broke.
Yep, over 50 million uninhabited homes in China. Their scheme was built on debt, taking on massive devt.
Posted on 1/31/24 at 9:01 am to teke184
quote:
On top of that, Evergrande was taking payments for properties they haven’t even built yet and didn’t have the cash flow to start, so there’s not much “there” there to be distributed.
i was reading about this the other day. China relied on a bit of strange mortgage system. i am no banker and pretty retarded but this was in an interesting read
quote:
THE MORTGAGE BOYCOTT
As if the rural bank problems in Henan and Anhui weren’t enough, conditions were suddenly made much worse by a threatened mortgage boycott that seemed to spread very soon after the rural bank problems in Henan went viral. In China, it is pretty standard for property developers to sell apartments in developments long before the projects have been completed. According to Ting Lu of Nomura, Chinese developers have delivered “only around 60 percent of homes they [sold in advance] between 2013 and 2020.”
In early- to mid-July, perhaps taking inspiration from the activity surrounding the rural banks, an online crowdsourcing group (“WeNeedHomes”) began complaining about the failure of property developers to deliver apartments on schedule, even though many of the homebuyers had taken out mortgages to make the payment deposits on these yet-to-be-constructed apartments and were required to maintain their mortgage payments. The group soon organized and began to threaten to stop making payments on the mortgages unless something was done to guarantee the completion of the apartments. By the end of July, more than 320 projects in a multitude of cities were affected by the mortgage boycott.
quote:
Although developers in many countries are allowed to sell homes before they finish building them, the practice in China is special in two ways. First, homebuyers have to pay in full when they decide to buy. Usually, they produce a downpayment for a mortgage and the bank covers the rest. But in other countries like the UK, buyers of presale homes only need to come up with a deposit to reserve a property. They don’t need to pay off a mortgage until their homes are delivered. This full-payment requirement has helped developers raise cash quickly, which they have burned to fund land purchases or expand their business, analysts said.
Second, until recently, Chinese developers had been allowed to use the bulk of their presale revenue for whatever they wanted. Although China has laws and regulations requiring developers to set aside enough money to finish construction on their housing projects, local governments and banks had allowed them to sidestep some of the rules, including the requirement that presale funds must be deposited into government-supervised escrow accounts. Instead, a vast amount of presale funds ended up in developers’ own account
[link=(
https://carnegieendowment.org/chinafinancialmarkets/87664#:~:text=Although%20developers%20in%20many%20countries,the%20bank%20covers%20the%20rest.)]LINK[/link]
This post was edited on 1/31/24 at 9:03 am
Posted on 1/31/24 at 9:08 am to CocomoLSU
China provided cheap debt to developers to help econ growth.
The Chinese people cannot invest outside the country so they looked for alternative investments, real estate became one of the most preferred for the average Chinese person.
Chinese kept investing in condos that no one lived in but since they kept investing and debt was available developers kept building.
Fast forward and now there are a billion condos that groups of average Chinese people own that no one lives in. They pooled their money together to buy condos when just one person didn't have enough which didn't help this situation.
Some groups think there could be more than 2 billion housing units that don't have anyone living in them and were an "investment".
So now reality is hitting and prices are collapsing and everyone's money is gone.
The Chinese people cannot invest outside the country so they looked for alternative investments, real estate became one of the most preferred for the average Chinese person.
Chinese kept investing in condos that no one lived in but since they kept investing and debt was available developers kept building.
Fast forward and now there are a billion condos that groups of average Chinese people own that no one lives in. They pooled their money together to buy condos when just one person didn't have enough which didn't help this situation.
Some groups think there could be more than 2 billion housing units that don't have anyone living in them and were an "investment".
So now reality is hitting and prices are collapsing and everyone's money is gone.
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