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re: Crackpot ASOIAF Theories SPOILERS

Posted on 4/15/14 at 1:53 pm to
Posted by Josh Fenderman
Ron Don Volante's PlayPen
Member since Jul 2011
7062 posts
Posted on 4/15/14 at 1:53 pm to
quote:

He almost explicitly states it to Tyrion at one point.

You have this quote handy?
Posted by OMLandshark
Member since Apr 2009
120445 posts
Posted on 4/15/14 at 1:55 pm to
Something to the effect of "Lord Tywin won't be around forever."
This post was edited on 4/15/14 at 1:56 pm
Posted by Brown Mountain
Covington, La
Member since Feb 2006
8014 posts
Posted on 4/15/14 at 1:58 pm to
quote:

Do we all agree he was poisoned before Tyrion emptied his bowels with a bolt?


It's been a while since I read book 3, but this doesnt ring a bell to me at all. What all happened before to indicate he was poisoned? I guess I just remember Tyrion climbing up the ladder and icing Asha then moving on to his dad on the crapper.
Posted by Gugich22
Who Dat Nation
Member since Jan 2006
27834 posts
Posted on 4/15/14 at 1:58 pm to
That's one theory I'm torn on. On one hand, I can certainly see it happening. However, I'm not sure what the point would be for Oberyn to poison Tywin only to have Tyrion finish him off. What's the redeeming/fully concluded plot line at this point if it were to be true?
Posted by Gugich22
Who Dat Nation
Member since Jan 2006
27834 posts
Posted on 4/15/14 at 1:59 pm to
quote:

icing Asha



I wish he did this but, alas, it was Shae.
Posted by Brown Mountain
Covington, La
Member since Feb 2006
8014 posts
Posted on 4/15/14 at 2:00 pm to
Haha, yeah, sorry, Shae.
Posted by kingbob
Sorrento, LA
Member since Nov 2010
71060 posts
Posted on 4/15/14 at 2:00 pm to
quote:

I'm not sure what the point would be for Oberyn to poison Tywin only to have Tyrion finish him off. What's the redeeming/fully concluded plot line at this point if it were to be true?


Oberyn was going to get his man no matter what. He came for revenge and he got it. He had no idea that Tyrion was going to kill Tywin before the poison got him.
Posted by Josh Fenderman
Ron Don Volante's PlayPen
Member since Jul 2011
7062 posts
Posted on 4/15/14 at 2:01 pm to
quote:

Lord Tywin won't be around forever

That doesn't sell it for me. Tywin is an old man.
Posted by OMLandshark
Member since Apr 2009
120445 posts
Posted on 4/15/14 at 2:01 pm to
quote:

That's one theory I'm torn on. On one hand, I can certainly see it happening. However, I'm not sure what the point would be for Oberyn to poison Tywin only to have Tyrion finish him off. What's the redeeming/fully concluded plot line at this point if it were to be true?


That's exactly how I feel about it. It's completely plausible, but I don't see what it does for the characters.
Posted by CE Tiger
Metairie
Member since Jan 2008
41955 posts
Posted on 4/15/14 at 2:07 pm to
some evidence of the red vipers work

quote:

Tywin Lannister: Dead Man Shitting?
"Where will I find my lord father?”

“In the solar with Lord Tyrell and Prince Oberyn.”

Mace Tyrell and the Red Viper breaking bread together? Strange and stranger.

—Jaime and Ser Meryn Trant, upon Jaime’s return to King’s Landing

"Widow’s blood, this one is called, for the color. A cruel potion. It shuts down a man’s bladder and bowels, until he drowns in his own poisons."

—Grand Maester Pycelle, during Tyrion’s trial

“To be sure, I have much to thank your sister for. If not for her accusation at the feast, it might well be you judging me instead of me judging you.” The prince’s eyes were dark with amusement. “Who knows more of poison than the Red Viper of Dorne, after all?”

[…]

“Your father,” said Prince Oberyn, “may not live forever.”

Something about the way he said it made the hairs on the back of Tyrion’s neck bristle. Suddenly he was mindful of Elia again, and all that Oberyn had said as they crossed the field of ashes. He wants the head that spoke the words, not just the hand that swung the sword. “It is not wise to speak such treasons in the Red Keep, my prince. The little birds are listening.”

“Let them. Is it treason to say a man is mortal? Valar morghulis was how they said it in Valyria of old. All men must die. And the Doom came and proved it true.”

—Prince Oberyn Martell and Tyrion, in Tyrion’s cell

He found his father where he knew he’d find him, seated in the dimness of the privy tower, bedrobe hiked up around his hips.

[…]

For once, his father did what Tyrion asked him. The proof was the sudden stench, as his bowels loosened in the moment of death. Well, he was in the right place for it, Tyrion thought. But the stink that filled the privy gave ample evidence that the oft-repeated jape about his father was just another lie.

Lord Tywin Lannister did not, in the end, shite gold.

—from Tyrion’s assassination of Tywin during his escape from the black cells

The King’s Hand was rotting visibly. His face had taken on a greenish tinge, and his eyes were deeply sunken, two black pits. Fissures had opened in his cheeks, and a foul white fluid was seeping through the joints of his splendid gold-and-crimson armor to pool beneath his body.

[…]

Red-eyed and pale, Cersei climbed the steps to kneel above their father, drawing Tommen down beside her. The boy recoiled at the sight, but his mother seized his wrist before he could pull away.“Pray,” she whispered, and Tommen tried. But he was only eight and Lord Tywin was a horror. One desperate breath of air, then the king began to sob.“Stop that!” Cersei said. Tommen turned his head and doubled over, retching. His crown fell off and rolled across the marble floor. His mother pulled back in disgust, and all at once the king was running for the doors, as fast as his eight-year-old legs could carry him.

“Ser Osmund, relieve me,” Jaime said sharply, as Kettleblack turned to chase the crown. He handed the man the golden sword and went after his king. In the Hall of Lamps he caught him, beneath the eyes of two dozen startled septas. “I’m sorry,” Tommen wept. “I will do better on the morrow. Mother says a king must show the way, but the smell made me sick.”

This will not do. Too many eager ears and watching eyes.“Best we go outside, Your Grace.” Jaime led the boy out to where the air was as fresh and clean as King’s Landing ever got. Twoscore gold cloaks had been posted around the plaza to guard the horses and the litters. He took the king off to the side, well away from everyone, and sat him down upon the marble steps. “I wasn’t scared,” the boy insisted. “The smell made me sick. Didn’t it make you sick? How could you bear it, Uncle, ser?”

—Jaime, Cersei, and Tommen, during Tywin’s funeral.
Posted by 19
Flux Capacitor, Fluxing
Member since Nov 2007
35690 posts
Posted on 4/15/14 at 2:09 pm to
It was more evident that he was poisoned post - mortem. The horrible smell, the draining, the increased rate of decomposition...I don't think there were any hints before hand...other than he was on the pot, and his bowels released when he died...

But I think that happens to most people.

Eta: CETiger
This post was edited on 4/15/14 at 2:13 pm
Posted by Gugich22
Who Dat Nation
Member since Jan 2006
27834 posts
Posted on 4/15/14 at 2:24 pm to
quote:

“To be sure, I have much to thank your sister for. If not for her accusation at the feast, it might well be you judging me instead of me judging you.” The prince’s eyes were dark with amusement. “Who knows more of poison than the Red Viper of Dorne, after all?”



I took this as more of a promise to Tyrion that Oberyn WOULD have killed Tywin had he not done so.

However, those passages do make a compelling case. I can easily see why one would theorize over it but I just think it's just added to the pot to make things more confusing/interesting for the reader. I firmly believe Tyrion, and Tyrion alone, killed Tywin.
Posted by OMLandshark
Member since Apr 2009
120445 posts
Posted on 4/15/14 at 2:28 pm to
I think Varys nudged Tyrion a bit though.
Posted by Gugich22
Who Dat Nation
Member since Jan 2006
27834 posts
Posted on 4/15/14 at 2:33 pm to
quote:

I think Varys nudged Tyrion a bit though.




Honestly, there isn't much that happens in King's Landing that either Varys or LittleFinger aren't at least partially responsible for...
Posted by ladytiger118
Member since Aug 2009
20922 posts
Posted on 4/15/14 at 2:41 pm to
I 100% think that Oberyn poisoned Tywin.
Posted by Josh Fenderman
Ron Don Volante's PlayPen
Member since Jul 2011
7062 posts
Posted on 4/15/14 at 2:44 pm to
quote:

I think Varys nudged Tyrion a bit though

Oh definitely. All he had to do was not tell him the EXACT directions on how to get to Tywin's chambers in the dark. Instead, he barely put up a fight about it.
Posted by Gugich22
Who Dat Nation
Member since Jan 2006
27834 posts
Posted on 4/15/14 at 2:49 pm to
I think that Varys knew Jaime was going to free Tyrion. How else do you figure he just so happened to run into Tryion after he escaped?
Posted by Cosmo
glassman's guest house
Member since Oct 2003
132513 posts
Posted on 4/15/14 at 2:50 pm to
After reading tjose passages, yeah, he did it.
Posted by Gugich22
Who Dat Nation
Member since Jan 2006
27834 posts
Posted on 4/15/14 at 2:50 pm to
quote:

I 100% think that Oberyn poisoned Tywin.




Ok. I see that. But what's the point? If you are GRRM, what is the point in included that in the literature if Tyrion was just going to kill him anyway?
Posted by Cosmo
glassman's guest house
Member since Oct 2003
132513 posts
Posted on 4/15/14 at 2:51 pm to
Red Viper is a boss. Thats the point.
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