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Posted on 2/24/14 at 7:37 pm to SM6
quote:
SM6
It's a good question as there are differences in style in the top leagues.
I'd caution however that just because a style may be more common in a league, these are stereotypical and there are certainly many teams that are exceptions:
EPL: very straightforward style that traditionally values pace and power more than technical skills on the ball and passing on the ground. Very roughly officiated which also plays into the pace and power. More back and forth open field running than tactically nuanced buildup play.
(Arsenal, current Man City are the most notable exceptions)
Serie A: the old insult is that Serie A is "chess on grass" because play is often characterized by very nuanced tactics to exploit specific match ups. There's usually a strong emphasis on always maintaining good defensive position and play is given to extreme ups and down of "action". Very high level of technically skilled players ("the backheel league" is another nickname) often at the expense of faster, stronger ones. It's the league that historically produces the best managers.
(AS Roma, Fiorentina, Napoli are the most notable exceptions to this though there's been so many exceptions the past couple of season that the stereotype may begin to change)
Bundesliga: other people watch more than I do here obviously but the stereotype is an athletic league with some great, usually younger, technically skilled players. The style is usually higher defensive pressing and very attacking styles but often with some pretty porous defense.
La Liga: Like Serie A it's filled with very technical domestic and South American players. The style though is more open with an emphasis on playing "beautiful" attacking, buildup oriented football but often to detriment of solid defense. Fouls called very tightly to promote this type of play.
Posted on 2/24/14 at 8:41 pm to TN Bhoy
quote:
TN Bhoy
what a dipshit
Posted on 2/24/14 at 8:46 pm to wm72
quote:
(Arsenal, current Man City are the most notable exceptions)
I would like to throw Southampton and last year's Swansea into the mix.
quote:
Serie A: the old insult is that Serie A is "chess on grass" because play is often characterized by very nuanced tactics to exploit specific match ups. There's usually a strong emphasis on always maintaining good defensive position and play is given to extreme ups and down of "action". Very high level of technically skilled players ("the backheel league" is another nickname) often at the expense of faster, stronger ones. It's the league that historically produces the best managers.
I do not get Serie A hate. I think it is great to watch.
Posted on 2/24/14 at 8:47 pm to Vicks Kennel Club
I enjoy watching Serie A too, the atmosphere can be a bit boring though in terms of crowds. A lot of skill and technical ability on the field though.
Posted on 2/24/14 at 9:19 pm to hendersonshands
quote:
I enjoy watching Serie A too, the atmosphere can be a bit boring though in terms of crowds. A lot of skill and technical ability on the field though.
Completely agree with this. I probably watch it the more than any other league, after MLS and the PL.
This post was edited on 2/24/14 at 9:20 pm
Posted on 2/24/14 at 9:36 pm to hendersonshands
quote:
There's more parity in the Bundesliga than the Premiere League over the last 10 years. Just so happens there's a club buying all the great players in the league right now.
quote:
what a dipshit
while I would normally agree with you here, he's not wrong.
quote:
I enjoy watching Serie A too, the atmosphere can be a bit boring though in terms of crowds.
When I went to the Chievo Verona match in 2012 there were maybe 10k people in that stadium, max. And it's pretty large. It was kind of pitiful. Admittedly Helas Verona is the more supported club and Chievo is more of a suburb.
Posted on 2/24/14 at 9:42 pm to cwil177
quote:
while I would normally agree with you here, he's not wrong.
Yes, yes he is.
Posted on 2/24/14 at 10:06 pm to hendersonshands
So what are your facts backing up that point of view? Genuinely interested.
Posted on 2/24/14 at 10:20 pm to cwil177
quote:
I enjoy watching Serie A too, the atmosphere can be a bit boring though in terms of crowds.
quote:
When I went to the Chievo Verona match in 2012 there were maybe 10k people in that stadium, max. And it's pretty large. It was kind of pitiful. Admittedly Helas Verona is the more supported club and Chievo is more of a suburb.
The problem with Serie A atmosphere is mainly the stadiums and more a problem for TV than actually being at the match for most clubs.
There can be 60,000 fans with crazed fanfare at Stadio Olimpico, just to give one example, but the background of the TV shot unless the camera pans out is the empty seats no one wants at field level or the running track area.
Chiveo is a notable exception since they're a tiny suburban club (to Verona that's already smaller than, say, Baton Rouge) with hardly any traditional support. They're under a great run with good owners but they don't really have fans.
They play in the huge huge municipal stadium that's almost like Tulane playing in the Superdome.
The same level English club would have those 10-15k fans packed into small football specific stadium.
Posted on 2/24/14 at 10:41 pm to Vicks Kennel Club
quote:
I would like to throw Southampton and last year's Swansea into the mix.
Yeah, good point. They certainly both try to play a more refined passing on the ground oriented game.
To me, the EPL currently is less characterized by the old "punt and run" than it is perhaps by too much fouling and a bit too much emphasis on pace at the expense of technical ability and tactical precision. The latter though does lead to open back and forth action that probably appeals to lot of new fans.
However, with all the new money there's certainly many more technically gifted imports in the league than ever.
quote:
I do not get Serie A hate. I think it is great to watch.
It probably goes back to when Serie A was top dog and there's certainly a "bandwagon" push among some younger fans to knock it at every chance, particularly English ones.
Serie A has it's share of problems but the brand of football has always been good. The league currently has less elite star power than previously but it's actually much more open and attacking than ever and not just the main one's getting the publicity like Roma, Fiorentina and Napoli but also many mid to bottom table sides are loaded with young attacking talent and play very attractive styles. (again, Chievo is a notable exception. )
Posted on 2/24/14 at 10:57 pm to cwil177
quote:
So what are your facts backing up that point of view? Genuinely interested.
The facts are that people like you and TN Bhoy just regurgitate what you read on Reddit.
The fact is that everyone fell in love with Dortmund then fell for their narrative that they're a small club that produces their own players for big bad Bayern to steal. The fact is that Dortmund has maybe 3 or 4 players on their roster that you'd consider homegrown.
Look at the starting XI from last year's Champions League:
Bayern started 4 guys from their own youth setup - Lahm, Schweinsteiger, Müller, Alaba. 3 guys bought from other German squads - Mandzukic (Wolfsburg), Dante (Gladbach), Neuer (Schalke) and 4 guys from abroad - Robben, Ribery, Martinez, Boateng.
Borussia Dortmund started Marcy Schmelzer from their own setup. Maybe Weidenfeller can count since he was nothing before Dortmund but he's from Kaiserslautern. From other Bundesliga clubs they started, Marco Reus (Gladbach), Subotic (Mainz), Sven Bender (1860 Munich), Ilkay Gundogan (Nurnberg), Hummels (Bayern Munich). From abroad they signed Kuba, Piszczek, Lewandowski. Kevin Großkreutz is from God knows where.
Bayern got a lot of shite for buying Mario Götze but it's the same shite that happened when Dortmund bought Marco Reus, both guys were bought from top tier German sides - Gladbach finished in a Champions League spot and Reus was the player of the year - and both guys went to their dream clubs.
Robert Lewandowski wanted to leave Dortmund because they didn't pay him what he was worth and even though they were one of the most profitable clubs in Europe, they still had the club staying in hostels on the road. Blame Dortmund for being cheap.
Just this summer Dortmund poached Sokratis from Werder Bremen even after he already had a verbal agreement to join Bayer Leverkusen. Speaking of Leverkusen, their best player was Schürrle who they got from Mainz and then replaced him with Hueng-Min Son who they got from Hamburg.
The fact is that players move around in the Bundesliga and if you don't want them to, do what Schalke just did with Donis Avdijaj and slap on a 50 million Euro buyout clause.
It's just lazy and ignorant to repeat the same old "Bayern bought up the Bundesliga talent" argument that people want you to believe. Bayern is a giant club and they're always on the lookout for good players, yes some of them come from the Bundesliga but they're also a global club with a good youth academy (Pierre-Emile Højbjerg is the next big thing).
In short, quit listening to Dortmund fans cry and get some perspective.
Posted on 2/24/14 at 11:29 pm to hendersonshands
You really like to bitch about Dortmund (and I've seen you make this point no less than 20 times on this board), but the argument still stands. Bayern has the power to buy up all the top talent.
Look- they literally bought the two best players from the next most competitive team in the league... who also happened to be the the two best players in the league NOT already playing for Bayern. On top of it they were already CL champs and then went and got the coach who led Barcelona to a run which, in the eyes of many, might qualify them, during that stretch, as the best club team of all time.
Especially for the casual fan who would like to see a competitive league with some sort of realistic competition for the title, this puts off many. I would be more interested in the Bundesliga if Bayern weren't ahead by 19 points with a +54 goal differential with 3 months left to play. The second place team has a +14 GD and just got butt raped 4-0 at home by PSG in the CL.
I don't read r/soccer, for the record, and I couldn't give less shits about Dortmund. I just root for the teams with Americans not to get relegated. I guess implying that I can't make arguments for myself is easier to do than admit that I might, in fact, have a point.
Look- they literally bought the two best players from the next most competitive team in the league... who also happened to be the the two best players in the league NOT already playing for Bayern. On top of it they were already CL champs and then went and got the coach who led Barcelona to a run which, in the eyes of many, might qualify them, during that stretch, as the best club team of all time.
Especially for the casual fan who would like to see a competitive league with some sort of realistic competition for the title, this puts off many. I would be more interested in the Bundesliga if Bayern weren't ahead by 19 points with a +54 goal differential with 3 months left to play. The second place team has a +14 GD and just got butt raped 4-0 at home by PSG in the CL.
I don't read r/soccer, for the record, and I couldn't give less shits about Dortmund. I just root for the teams with Americans not to get relegated. I guess implying that I can't make arguments for myself is easier to do than admit that I might, in fact, have a point.
Posted on 2/24/14 at 11:49 pm to SM6
The difference between the leagues is plain and simple: Pace.
ETA: Style, too. It's no coincidence that Spain has such precision and teamwork year after year.
ETA: Style, too. It's no coincidence that Spain has such precision and teamwork year after year.
This post was edited on 2/24/14 at 11:55 pm
Posted on 2/25/14 at 12:08 am to AirRaidTT
quote:
The difference between the leagues is plain and simple: Pace.
The difference in pace as in running speed of the players is more an effect of differing styles.
Pace of play is also a tactical maneuver that can often be employed to cover up for the lack of technically proficient players all over the pitch.
MLS, for example, probably has a lot more pacey players than La Liga or Serie A.
Posted on 2/25/14 at 12:16 am to Vicks Kennel Club
quote:
(Arsenal, current Man City are the most notable exceptions)
I would like to throw Southampton and last year's Swansea into the mix.
Jesus we can't buy credit from you guys. Liverpool are arguably the most attractive squad to watch in the EPL this year.
The era of punt and run is virtually over. More and more clubs are moving to a pass and move philosophy, and while some are better than others, I laud them all for attempting to play the game the right way. No matter how effective they are at it.
Posted on 2/25/14 at 12:47 am to BleedPurpleGold
quote:
Jesus we can't buy credit from you guys. Liverpool are arguably the most attractive squad to watch in the EPL this year.
I certainly agree that Liverpool is a lot of fun to watch.
When I posted Arsenal and Man City as examples I did pause for a second on Liverpool but didn't put them simply because they don't strike me as particularly "non English" in the way Arsenal or Man City does.
That's no knock at all either as I didn't mention Juve as an exception in Serie A for a similar reason even though they're the best team in the league and are a joy watch, I imagine, for non-Roma fans.
Maybe it's just the matches I've seen against top competition but Liverpool was extremely direct in a very English way. Very open spacing and getting the ball ahead to pacy wingers with some desperate tackling deep midfield defending . . . They were very effective at it and certainly filled with skilled players all over like Coutinho, Garrard, Henderson and some unsung like that kid Allen.
Again, it's just an impression and far from one based on a lot of matches.
This post was edited on 2/25/14 at 12:48 am
Posted on 2/25/14 at 12:55 am to wm72
quote:
they don't strike me as particularly "non English" in the way Arsenal or Man City does.
Oh I agree. Looking back on the post I read your "exceptions" as notable exceptions to "punt and run," not exceptions to an English style. Apologies for that. We are very English in style, the point I was trying to get across was that its very silly for the EPL to be characterized as a punt and run league. Although we have players who stand out for their noticeable ability to skip the attacking MF to find the forwards (Gerrard), the majority of our attacking passes are to feet. You'll find most other EPL clubs are moving in that direction while keeping a certain English flavor in their game.
Posted on 2/25/14 at 1:16 am to hendersonshands
Reus was a Dortmund youth product, hence Dortmund being his dream club. I don't know if that makes Reus homegrown though, or what definition of homegrown you are using, since you seem to be pointing out the clubs players played for immediately before for Bayern and Dortmund, and then referring to each teams homegrown talent. Using the metric of the CL final, you can leave out Goetze and Sahin, which colors the argument by making it seem like Dortmund's ability to develop talent is overblown/overrated.
I think you are projecting a little bit. Everyone knows Dortmund is a massive club, one of the biggest in Europe. The major criticism started, as I remember it, after Goetze moved from Dortmund to Munich, and the rumors during the summer that Lewandowski wanted to move there as well. I have no clue about the reddit thing, but let's not pretend that there aren't some legitimate criticisms to be had in that situation. The announcement if the move before the game I think left some bad taste in the mouths of neutrals, as it seemed like Munich was playing head games with Dortmund. And while a team buying a rival's best player isn't unprecedented, a team buying a rival's best player right before the biggest game of the season is rather unprecedented, and obviously created a media firestorm.
In addition no other top four league has such a massive disparity in the revenue between its top two teams. Last year the disparity in revenue between Dortmund and Munich was 226 million euros. That's absolutely insane. Every year since 2006 Munich has earned at least 100 million more than its closest German competitor. Again no other top league has that type of disparity over that time period. While the league itself is sustainable, the danger is that players will leave for other countries. With England's new TV deal, the mid-tier PL clubs can outspend mid-tier clubs from other countries, and surely they will target Germany's deep talent pool for good players. For the sake of the Bundesliga, the league needs Dortmund to step up to the super club level, or everyone else's criticisms about it being a one team league might also become legitimate.
I think you are projecting a little bit. Everyone knows Dortmund is a massive club, one of the biggest in Europe. The major criticism started, as I remember it, after Goetze moved from Dortmund to Munich, and the rumors during the summer that Lewandowski wanted to move there as well. I have no clue about the reddit thing, but let's not pretend that there aren't some legitimate criticisms to be had in that situation. The announcement if the move before the game I think left some bad taste in the mouths of neutrals, as it seemed like Munich was playing head games with Dortmund. And while a team buying a rival's best player isn't unprecedented, a team buying a rival's best player right before the biggest game of the season is rather unprecedented, and obviously created a media firestorm.
In addition no other top four league has such a massive disparity in the revenue between its top two teams. Last year the disparity in revenue between Dortmund and Munich was 226 million euros. That's absolutely insane. Every year since 2006 Munich has earned at least 100 million more than its closest German competitor. Again no other top league has that type of disparity over that time period. While the league itself is sustainable, the danger is that players will leave for other countries. With England's new TV deal, the mid-tier PL clubs can outspend mid-tier clubs from other countries, and surely they will target Germany's deep talent pool for good players. For the sake of the Bundesliga, the league needs Dortmund to step up to the super club level, or everyone else's criticisms about it being a one team league might also become legitimate.
This post was edited on 2/25/14 at 1:28 am
Posted on 2/25/14 at 1:26 am to BleedPurpleGold
quote:
You'll find most other EPL clubs are moving in that direction while keeping a certain English flavor in their game.
Anyone who pretends that the punt and run was the only English style is naive. English teams dominated Europe with a direct style of play that was about making forward passes with speed, getting wide and supporting the forwards. They dominated the European Cup from the mid 70's til the Heysel disaster.
I think why Arsenal and now Man City get noticed is that their style of play is somewhat pensive, especially Arsenal. Man City have more flair and finesse, but all of Wenger's teams have had a thoughtfulness in possession made more pronounced by the juxtaposition of the direct English style, and the continental style of Wenger.
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