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Started By
Message
You be the admissions director
Posted on 9/21/14 at 1:35 pm
Posted on 9/21/14 at 1:35 pm
The NYT has been on a 2 week long kick about a new form of diversity at elite colleges. Not race, not gender... Poverty. There aren't enough poor people admitted to Harvard.
Let us use ACT scores because they are easier. If John has an ACT of 36 and has rich parents; while Mary has an ACT of 28 and has poor parents, then Mary will get the scholarship. It's called Needs Based. It happens.
If John has an ACT of 36 and Jemarkus has one of 26 and is black then Jemarkus gets the scholarship due to aff action (yes, I know the court battles).
But let's throw out race. Ying and Yang are both Chinese.
Let's then throw out gender and race. Tons of Chinese and girls at Harvard.
Now, let's include Poverty. Ying has an ACT of 36 and his parents are rich. Yang has an ACT of 22 and her parents are poor.
Ying's argument is meritocracy. He deserves admission based on his accomplishments. He can pay his own way.
Yang's argument is diversity. It will enrich Harvard to associate with a Chinese girl living in poverty. She needs a full ride.
Who do you take?
Let us use ACT scores because they are easier. If John has an ACT of 36 and has rich parents; while Mary has an ACT of 28 and has poor parents, then Mary will get the scholarship. It's called Needs Based. It happens.
If John has an ACT of 36 and Jemarkus has one of 26 and is black then Jemarkus gets the scholarship due to aff action (yes, I know the court battles).
But let's throw out race. Ying and Yang are both Chinese.
Let's then throw out gender and race. Tons of Chinese and girls at Harvard.
Now, let's include Poverty. Ying has an ACT of 36 and his parents are rich. Yang has an ACT of 22 and her parents are poor.
Ying's argument is meritocracy. He deserves admission based on his accomplishments. He can pay his own way.
Yang's argument is diversity. It will enrich Harvard to associate with a Chinese girl living in poverty. She needs a full ride.
Who do you take?
7
Posted on 9/21/14 at 1:42 pm to Zach
quote:
Ying's argument is meritocracy. He deserves admission based on his accomplishments. He can pay his own way.
Yang's argument is diversity. It will enrich Harvard to associate with a Chinese girl living in poverty. She needs a full ride.
Who do you take?
You're conflating general admission with need-based scholarships. I don't even understand wtf you are asking.
Posted on 9/21/14 at 1:45 pm to onmymedicalgrind
Read it again 3 times. Use your finger on each word if it makes it easier and come again.
Posted on 9/21/14 at 1:48 pm to Zach
It seems pretty clear to me what zach is saying.
Posted on 9/21/14 at 1:49 pm to Zach
How about you make a more realistic hypothetical if you want quality discussion. No one with a 22 is getting into Harvard irrespective of financial situation. Take a nap, get your daily metamucil and then try again.
Posted on 9/21/14 at 1:50 pm to onmymedicalgrind
quote:
Metamucil
Don't sleep on it.
Posted on 9/21/14 at 1:51 pm to baybeefeetz
quote:
It seems pretty clear to me what zach is saying.
Its such a dumb question. You obviously admit the 36, and thats what Harvard does. But you don't give them the need-based scholarship if they don't need it. Its not rocket science.
Posted on 9/21/14 at 2:00 pm to onmymedicalgrind
Right but he wasn't saying anything about need based scholarships. His post was clear.
Note: I am far from a Zach fan, so this has nothing to do with him or you.
Note: I am far from a Zach fan, so this has nothing to do with him or you.
Posted on 9/21/14 at 2:02 pm to baybeefeetz
quote:
Right but he wasn't saying anything about need based scholarships.
Really? So he never mentioned it and I just made it all up in my head?
quote:
If John has an ACT of 36 and has rich parents; while Mary has an ACT of 28 and has poor parents, then Mary will get the scholarship. It's called Needs Based. It happens.
quote:
She needs a full ride.
Posted on 9/21/14 at 2:10 pm to Zach
quote:
Read it again 3 times. Use your finger on each word if it makes it easier and come again.
I want to be Zach when I grow up.
Posted on 9/21/14 at 2:31 pm to onmymedicalgrind
quote:
Take a nap, get your daily metamucil and then try again.
There are different ways of looking at the admissions equation.
One is strictly via academic merit.
Another is diversity.
In an extreme hypothetical, if a school could fill its entire ranks with genius IQ-level Stepford Wives, could it provide the best educational experience to its students. Or rather given competent heterogeneity, could the experience be better. I think one can argue in behalf of educational advantages offered by divergent backgrounds. The obvious question is how far should or can qualifications dip, yet still retain competency within the university's academic standards. There certainly is a happy medium.
Posted on 9/21/14 at 2:31 pm to onmymedicalgrind
quote:
No one with a 22 is getting into Harvard irrespective of financial situation
Uh, I know 2 personally. I also know a girl who got into Princeton with a 23.
It happens.
Posted on 9/21/14 at 2:33 pm to Zach
quote:Is Princeton not an SAT school?
Uh, I know 2 personally. I also know a girl who got into Princeton with a 23.
Posted on 9/21/14 at 2:34 pm to onmymedicalgrind
quote:
She needs a full ride.
That's not the point. If you have one open spot for admissions and you have lots of Chinese and lots of women and lots of gays but you don't have any Chinese living in poverty do you give them the spot over a Chinese who has a 36 ACT?
Your answer is to give it to the moron Chinese to fulfill a 'diversity' goal. How sad.
Posted on 9/21/14 at 2:35 pm to anc
quote:
I want to be Zach when I grow up.
You could do worse, my child.
Posted on 9/21/14 at 2:35 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
I think one can argue in behalf of educational advantages offered by divergent backgrounds. The obvious question is how far should or can qualifications dip, yet still retain competency within the university's academic standards. There certainly is a happy medium.
I agree, but I think setting up this 36 vs 22 dichotomy is way to extreme to facilitate any meaningful discussion because thats not what Harvard is deciding between in their admissions meetings.
Posted on 9/21/14 at 2:36 pm to Zach
quote:
Uh, I know 2 personally. I also know a girl who got into Princeton with a 23.
It happens.
You still hang out with HSers Zach?
Anyways, this is irrelevant because Ivy and most NE schools place way more weight on SAT. ACT is much more of a southern thing.
Posted on 9/21/14 at 2:39 pm to onmymedicalgrind
quote:
You still hang out with HSers Zach?
This was a long time ago. Ivy League schools started aff action back in the 70s. I thought you would have known that.
Posted on 9/21/14 at 2:40 pm to Zach
quote:
That's not the point. If you have one open spot for admissions and you have lots of Chinese and lots of women and lots of gays but you don't have any Chinese living in poverty do you give them the spot over a Chinese who has a 36 ACT?
Your arguing from a faulty premise. Harvard's goal is to ensure that those who are qualified enough to gain acceptance into the school based on their accomplishments do not have to decline admission because they can't afford it. Its not a pre-admission quota/criteria/goal like you are erroneously framing it here.
quote:
Your answer is to give it to the moron Chinese to fulfill a 'diversity' goal. How sad.
Never said that. And this further illustrates how poorly you understand this whole issue. Like I said, it might be nap time.
Posted on 9/21/14 at 2:41 pm to Zach
It seems like an interesting take on diversity when diversity does not mean race or gender but seemingly rather intelligence.
Diversity they want in addition to race and gender is also intelligent. They should let stupid people into harvard and then handicap their grades like golf so stupid people can get good grades.
Obviously this to a degree is stupid. However, to a degree the level of the schooling a child gets strongly correlates with standardized test scores.
Growing up in a rural somewhat poor area of PA my standardized test scores were excellent for my area. Interestingly enough, my asvab scores were off the charts.
But, though my SAT scores were tremendous for my area, they would only be considered good for a great prep school.
So, standardized test scores are very important. Stupid is stupid. However understand that very good scores from a student going to a poor high school means much more than very good scores from a prep school.
Diversity they want in addition to race and gender is also intelligent. They should let stupid people into harvard and then handicap their grades like golf so stupid people can get good grades.
Obviously this to a degree is stupid. However, to a degree the level of the schooling a child gets strongly correlates with standardized test scores.
Growing up in a rural somewhat poor area of PA my standardized test scores were excellent for my area. Interestingly enough, my asvab scores were off the charts.
But, though my SAT scores were tremendous for my area, they would only be considered good for a great prep school.
So, standardized test scores are very important. Stupid is stupid. However understand that very good scores from a student going to a poor high school means much more than very good scores from a prep school.
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