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re: Why can’t we separate Conservative values from religion?
Posted on 9/2/26 at 6:46 am to Boom33
Posted on 9/2/26 at 6:46 am to Boom33
quote:
To answer this question, the universe is created on consciousness. God being the highest form of it. Without God there is no reality, there is no being, things would just exist at best and never be experienced. You need consciousness/God or something for reality to be presented to. As such God is the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end.
I count 5 assertions without explanations in your opening paragraph.
1
Posted on 9/2/26 at 6:49 am to FooManChoo
quote:
Slavery, itself, is not a violation of any commandment of God, because there are many types of relationships that fall under the term slavery that are not necessarily immoral, such as voluntary slavery.
Was regular employment not invented yet?
What is the difference between voluntary slavery and just having a paid job?
Posted on 9/2/26 at 8:30 am to Azkiger
quote:Usually when a person was voluntarily selling themselves or a daughter into servitude, there was such a great economic hardship that they couldn’t live otherwise. There wasn’t the same sort of economy with the diversity of work opportunities then as we have now, with most jobs being agrarian. Paid day laborer jobs existed but were one-off or seasonal, or people didn’t have the skills to do them (a farmer in debt likely couldn’t just get a job as a blacksmith), so it would have been difficult to simply “get a job” to address the financial problems a person was having by that point. Most anyone could be a servant to tend to a house, run errands, or do the little things the master of the house needed.
Was regular employment not invented yet?
What is the difference between voluntary slavery and just having a paid job?
Posted on 9/2/26 at 8:34 am to Mo Jeaux
quote:Aside from defending the Bible, I’m providing an opportunity for people to put their brains to work and use critical thinking to sort through complex issues. Equating slavery in the Bible to what Americans did is intellectually weak as well as dishonest. I’m trying to highlight that.
Oh good lord. You’ve done a number in this thread.
If you would like to provide counter arguments, you are free to do so. This is a discussion board, after all.
Posted on 9/2/26 at 8:49 am to FooManChoo
No, why buy the person and not whatever you need them for?
You need a farm hand? Pay for their labor, not pay to own them. What else are you buying outside the labor they provide? The right to beat the hell out of them?
You need a farm hand? Pay for their labor, not pay to own them. What else are you buying outside the labor they provide? The right to beat the hell out of them?
Posted on 9/2/26 at 10:06 am to Azkiger
quote:They didn't have labor contracts the same way we do. They didn't have secured jobs like we do. They had household servants and temporary day laborers.
No, why buy the person and not whatever you need them for?
You need a farm hand? Pay for their labor, not pay to own them. What else are you buying outside the labor they provide?
What they were buying was security, consistency, flexibility, and trust. Once a person was bought as a slave, they were to serve the household in whatever tasks needed to be done. A paid day laborer would be paid for a specific task, but once they were done and paid, they were gone. Sometimes flocks, harvests, or other jobs particular to a house needed a great deal of personal training and trust that couldn't be done for someone who wanted short-term work. There was also the unknown as to whether or not the agreement to come to work would even be honored. Most household slaves were considered part of the family, like Abraham's servant, Eliezer, who were trusted to run the household and do what the master of the house needed to get done.
quote:No. As I stated previously, beating up a slave was an expensive risk. You pay a large sum of money only to risk killing them and being put to death, yourself, or harming them badly enough to set them free with no refund.
The right to beat the hell out of them?
Posted on 9/2/26 at 10:09 am to FooManChoo
quote:
Sometimes flocks, harvests, or other jobs particular to a house needed a great deal of personal training and trust that couldn't be done for someone who wanted short-term work.
And clearly, the only way to get these sorts of workers is to own them, and their children, like property.
What was I thinking?
quote:
As I stated previously, beating up a slave was an expensive risk.
Nah, a few lashes across the back pose exactly zero risk to the teeth and eyes and still allow them to walk after a day or two (meet all the Bible requirements).
Lashes across the back... What does that remind you of?
This post was edited on 9/2/26 at 10:12 am
Posted on 9/2/26 at 10:18 am to FooManChoo
quote:
Keep up. I've talked about the various kinds of slavery in the Bible, including foreigners purchased. I've also discussed how they should be treated, which is with dignity as human beings made in the image of God.
You are saying all slavery is immoral, and yet there is slavery that is willingly entered into by many. How can you call such an arrangement immoral? On what basis? We'll start with that bit of nuance and move on from there.
Slavery is ok with God as long as you treat them ok?
You are a real piece of shite.
This post was edited on 9/2/26 at 10:19 am
Posted on 9/2/26 at 10:19 am to Azkiger
quote:
I count 5 assertions without explanations in your opening paragraph.
If you are a lightweight who can't handle things, just say so.
Posted on 9/2/26 at 10:24 am to Boom33
quote:
If you are a lightweight who can't handle things, just say so.
Okay.
Anyways, do you have the intellectual hardware to back up your claims or not?
Posted on 9/2/26 at 10:29 am to Azkiger
quote:
Okay.
Anyways, do you have the intellectual hardware to back up your claims or not?
Philosophy is the systematic study of fundamental questions about existence, knowledge, values, and reason through critical thinking and rational argument
The word comes from the ancient Greek word philosophia, which means the "love of wisdom"
Like I said, if you can't handle the discussion that's fine. Stick to picking on stupid dogmatic Christians, they are easy.
Posted on 9/2/26 at 10:33 am to Boom33
So no, you dont have the intellectual hardware to back up your claims and can be laughed at and trolled. Thanks for the confirmation.
Posted on 9/2/26 at 10:41 am to Azkiger
quote:
So no, you dont have the intellectual hardware to back up your claims and can be laughed at and trolled. Thanks for the confirmation.
You are the one lacking the ability here.
This post was edited on 9/2/26 at 10:42 am
Posted on 9/2/26 at 10:44 am to Boom33
quote:
You are the one lacking the ability here.
"I kNoW yOu ArE bUt wHaT aM i?"
Gee, good one. How could I ever compete with such an rhetorical giant?
Posted on 9/2/26 at 10:52 am to Azkiger
quote:
"I kNoW yOu ArE bUt wHaT aM i?"
Gee, good one. How could I ever compete with such an rhetorical giant?
You can't. That's why you went straight to ad hominems.
Posted on 9/2/26 at 11:16 am to Azkiger
quote:Again, they didn't have the framework for long-term employment like we do today. They were "owned" legally for a time, but not treated like mere property in practice. While they weren't family members, exactly, they were commanded to be treated like covenant members of the Israelite community. They were given Sabbath rest, and male slaves were to be given the covenant sign (circumcision). They could participate in the religious/national feasts, like Passover. Women could be made wives and daughters and given rights as such.
And clearly, the only way to get these sorts of workers is to own them, and their children, like property.
What was I thinking?
It's also worth noting that in a parallel passage in Deuteronomy 15, the reason given for a servant wanting to go from 6 years to being a life-long slave is a desire for it, not compulsion:
"And if it happens that he says to you, ‘I will not go away from you,’ because he loves you and your house, since he prospers with you, then you shall take an awl and thrust it through his ear to the door, and he shall be your servant forever. Also to your female servant you shall do likewise."
quote:Remember that all a slave had to do to get away from their servant relationship was to run away and go anywhere at all. They were not to be extradited and sent back to their master (Deut. 23:15). That means, if a master was arbitrarily beating up their slaves, they wouldn't have them for very long. It's why they were encouraged to treat them well.
Nah, a few lashes across the back pose exactly zero risk to the teeth and eyes and still allow them to walk after a day or two (meet all the Bible requirements).
Lashes across the back... What does that remind you of?
It's clear you are intentionally trying to make the situation sound worse than it was in order to justify your hatred for God and His word, but the fact of the matter is that slavery in ancient Israel wasn't like slavery in America, so to conflate the two as being equally bad and absolutely immoral is intellectually dishonest.
Posted on 9/2/26 at 11:17 am to Boom33
quote:I'd suggest you go back and read my responses to this thread. I'm not going to start over with you, especially after you have shown a propensity to not understand basic concepts and distinctions.
Slavery is ok with God as long as you treat them ok?
You are a real piece of shite.
Posted on 9/2/26 at 11:24 am to FooManChoo
quote:
I'd suggest you go back and read my responses to this thread. I'm not going to start over with you, especially after you have shown a propensity to not understand basic concepts and distinctions.
You've only tried to justify slavery based on treatment while classifying taking advantage of desperate people as them "volunteering". The pawn shop of life.
But I guess it's better than the Christian version of slavery, which was much more brutal, I'll give you that.
This post was edited on 9/2/26 at 11:26 am
Posted on 9/2/26 at 11:33 am to Boom33
quote:I've bolded a factual inaccuracy. The system was tolerated as an imperfect solution to bad circumstances. However, God goes out of His way in the Bible to say that those same people are NOT to be taken advantage of and oppressed. You show your misunderstandings yet again. Go read the thread.
You've only tried to justify slavery based on treatment while classifying taking advantage of desperate people as them "volunteering". The pawn shop of life.
This post was edited on 9/2/26 at 11:39 am
Posted on 9/2/26 at 11:37 am to FooManChoo
quote:
I've bolded a factual inaccuracy. The system was tolerated as an imperfect solution to bad circumstances. However, God goes out of His way in the Bible to say that those same people are NOT to be taken advantage of and oppressed. You show your misunderstands yet again. Go read the thread.
No, the system was what God dictated according to your claims that the bible is the word of God.
And I guess at least you are admitting you believe slavery is ok as long as you put out a water bowl and some food.
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