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re: What is the income range for "middle class" per the board?
Posted on 9/27/17 at 1:57 pm to Tigerdev
Posted on 9/27/17 at 1:57 pm to Tigerdev
quote:
But a family of 3 or 4 making 70k total with housing prices as they are...Seems like a struggle. Thats basically two entry level teachers in Jefferson Parish. Do-able but not ideal, eh?
That family lives better off than most.
Learn what you can afford, and what you don't need. You can do fine on that income
1
Posted on 9/27/17 at 1:58 pm to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
What happens to the price of goods and services? What happens to the small business owner who can't initially absorb those expenses?
OF COURSE there has to be reasonable number. $15 isn't it, that's unreasonable, and using that figure OF COURSE you are correct and most small businesses wouldn't be able to absorb that increase.
But just because $15 is unreasonable does not mean that the current wage is fair either.. Arkansas just went from $7.15 to 8 an hour and to be honest, I haven't noticed any increases in prices.
And in fact if you look at historical evidence, it's never been true that when the federal minimum wage goes up that prices skyrocket. It just isn't true. Because up to a reasonable amount the people paying the wages just have to decrease THEIR income . Because THEIR customers simply aren't go to be willing to pay more for products when most people actually agree that businesses should be paying more.
Now another thing to consider is that under MY proposal , welfare would probably be cut in half, which could and should (though we both know that knowing that our government would be another fight in itself) result in lower taxes for everyone, including those business owners who are now paying the higher wages.
I mean does it really seem right to you that we as tax payers are subsidizing lower wages via welfare?
Posted on 9/27/17 at 2:01 pm to HeyHeyHogsAllTheWay
quote:
But just because $15 is unreasonable does not mean that the current wage isquote:either..
fair
There's that word again. It's impossible to argue subjectiveness like "fair"
I know it's weird, growing up I was taught that if you want to earn more, make yourself more valuable. Imagine that
Posted on 9/27/17 at 2:02 pm to RogerTheShrubber
You can do fine on that income and a good deal less. It comes down to defining what we consider middle class. I am viewing it as a family that can own a house of a practical size in a decent neighborhood while still saving for retirement, medical costs and their kid's college. I don't think that is possible for the two entry level teachers.
I also think income doesn't tell the whole story. A federal worker only making 40k but with a pension, family healthcare plan, and 401k(tsp) is doing a lot better than someone without benefits.
I also think income doesn't tell the whole story. A federal worker only making 40k but with a pension, family healthcare plan, and 401k(tsp) is doing a lot better than someone without benefits.
Posted on 9/27/17 at 2:05 pm to Tigerdev
quote:
You can do fine on that income and a good deal less. It comes down to defining what we consider middle class. I am viewing it as a family that can own a house of a practical size in a decent neighborhood while still saving for retirement, medical costs and their kid's college. I don't think that is possible for the two entry level teachers.
70k with two kids is definitely middle class in every definition. Maybe it's because I grew up poor but you can live just fine on that kind of money
Posted on 9/27/17 at 2:06 pm to RogerTheShrubber
Minimum wage seems like a state level concern since the states are better positioned to understand the small business impact as well as the cost of living requirements.
Posted on 9/27/17 at 2:07 pm to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
70k with two kids is definitely middle class in every definition. Maybe it's because I grew up poor but you can live just fine on that kind of money
My wife and I are mid $90s with 4 kids at home and I consider us solidly middle class. I have no idea what some of these people are spending their money on.
Posted on 9/27/17 at 2:09 pm to Tigerdev
quote:
Minimum wage seems like a state level concern since the states are better positioned to understand the small business impact as well as the cost of living requirements.
Yep, there should be no national min wage.
I think it's $10.15 here, or will be soon but no one pays min wage.
Posted on 9/27/17 at 2:11 pm to Tigerdev
quote:Clearly!
I am no expert.
quote:Housing "costs" are a function of price and lending rates. Lending rates remain near historic lows. Prices are aligned with historical norms, albeit at far better construction quality.
But a family of 3 or 4 making 70k total with housing prices as they are...
We are far from the Jimmy Carter days of linoleum floors, formica counters, hollow 5lb doors, cheap built-ins, one-car garages, etc. all at 18% 30yr rates.
Posted on 9/27/17 at 2:11 pm to RogerTheShrubber
I didn't grow up rich either. But this ain't the old days my friend. My parents first house when I was a kid cost $80,000 dollars, had a huge yard, and was right next to a park. The neighborhood was diverse and had a great community that looked out for each other. A 20% down payment on that is only 16k. Doable for a lower income family if they save and the monthly payment would be low.
Even adjusting for inflation, it is far harder to get started now. Starter homes are double or triple the price and financing rules are a lot stricter in terms of down payments and sources of income.
Even adjusting for inflation, it is far harder to get started now. Starter homes are double or triple the price and financing rules are a lot stricter in terms of down payments and sources of income.
Posted on 9/27/17 at 2:12 pm to HeyHeyHogsAllTheWay
In fairness I said 80k-200k so you would be in my range....which is what he was disputing.
Posted on 9/27/17 at 2:14 pm to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
Yep, there should be no national min wage.
I think it's $10.15 here, or will be soon but no one pays min wage.
of course there has to be a national minimum wage otherwise there are 5 states currently that would have NO minimum wage .
Posted on 9/27/17 at 2:14 pm to RogerTheShrubber
Here. I'm going to help everyone out here.
The term "middle class" is a 100% meaningless political term.
The reality is, everyone who falls between
1. Is unable to provide shelter and food to those they are responsible for
and
2. No longer has to worry about money again barring something completely unforeseeable
is middle class.
Most of you are having a problem with a fundamental aspect of numbers here.
The left limit is, and always will be, $0. But, the right limit on the curve can grow.....theoretically without limit.
And, since another fact of life is that it almost has to grow at an uneven rate, the skew will get further and further right stretching out the numbers to the right of the median forever.
So, the approaches most are using in this thread are frankly, wrong.
The bottom line is that truly, it's just crazy to only use "poor, middle class and rich" because no rational person would categorize Americans as living in those distinct groups.
Using percentiles is also silly for the same reason.
Finally, let's be blunt here. 99% of Americans, by any reasonable definition, are rich as frick compared to well over half the people on the planet.
I looked it up not that long ago and if you are in the 5th percentile in America, you're in like the 92nd percentile world wide.
How is THAT for class envy!
The term "middle class" is a 100% meaningless political term.
The reality is, everyone who falls between
1. Is unable to provide shelter and food to those they are responsible for
and
2. No longer has to worry about money again barring something completely unforeseeable
is middle class.
Most of you are having a problem with a fundamental aspect of numbers here.
The left limit is, and always will be, $0. But, the right limit on the curve can grow.....theoretically without limit.
And, since another fact of life is that it almost has to grow at an uneven rate, the skew will get further and further right stretching out the numbers to the right of the median forever.
So, the approaches most are using in this thread are frankly, wrong.
The bottom line is that truly, it's just crazy to only use "poor, middle class and rich" because no rational person would categorize Americans as living in those distinct groups.
Using percentiles is also silly for the same reason.
Finally, let's be blunt here. 99% of Americans, by any reasonable definition, are rich as frick compared to well over half the people on the planet.
I looked it up not that long ago and if you are in the 5th percentile in America, you're in like the 92nd percentile world wide.
How is THAT for class envy!
Posted on 9/27/17 at 2:15 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:That's all good and fine but housing prices have risen at a higher rate than income in many areas. This has a huge impact on affordability.
Housing "costs" are a function of price and lending rates. Lending rates remain near historic lows. Prices are aligned with historical norms, albeit at far better construction quality.
We are far from the Jimmy Carter days of linoleum floors, formica counters, hollow 5lb doors, cheap built-ins, one-car garages, etc. all at 18% 30yr rate
Posted on 9/27/17 at 2:16 pm to TigerFanatic99
quote:
The overall average household income in 2015 was $67,565. I would call middle class to be $50,674 to $84,456. Sounds low, but middle class isn't as easy of a life as it was in the past.
Yes it is...
People today just think they have to have more and more luxuries.
The amount of income we spend on unnecessary crap is astounding.
Posted on 9/27/17 at 2:17 pm to Tigerdev
quote:
That's all good and fine but housing prices have risen at a higher rate than income in many areas. This has a huge impact on affordability.
Good fricking God Americans are hopelessly economically ignorant.
I mean, it's an insurmountable problem.
Posted on 9/27/17 at 2:18 pm to Tigerdev
quote:No. and see previous.
Starter homes are double or triple the price
quote:
and financing rules are a lot stricter in terms of down payments and sources of income.
No! Not even close. Posted on 9/27/17 at 2:19 pm to ShortyRob
Do you have a problem with what I said specifically or are you just ranting and raving?
Posted on 9/27/17 at 2:20 pm to Taxing Authority
quote:It is just.......I mean.....absolutely stunning how bad people are at numbers. I mean.......SPECTACULARLY bad.
Starter homes are double or triple the price No. and see previous.
quote:Yeah. This one? I mean. It's actually true. I just can't even
and financing rules are a lot stricter in terms of down payments and sources of income. No! Not even close.
Posted on 9/27/17 at 2:21 pm to Tigerdev
quote:Yes.
Do you have a problem with what I said
quote:Frankly, yes.
are you just ranting and raving
When confronted with the insurmountable task of American economic ignorance, it's really about all I got.
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