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Posted on 7/23/14 at 12:24 pm to jamboybarry
quote:Why didn't you bold where I said "and following through"? Letting it go for a year is not following through, it makes people think they don't care.
WTF? Some of the accounts were in arrears for a year. Almost every functioning adult that I know would reason this was grounds for service disconnection.
quote:Yep, but they are shutting off people who are $150 or more behind (and, of course, some owed thousands), and people didn't know about payment plans until after the shut-offs began.
Also shut off notices were sent out in May
Look, people get their water shut off all over the country all the time, and they get upset. Only in Detroit are people marching the streets over it.
quote:It's already been discussed and shown that many of them are able to pay, and that seems to be the prevailing conservative argument in this thread. It has even been argued that NOBODY could POSSIBLY be so poor as to not be able to afford a $65 water bill.
And my point is that with an already abnormally high service rate, almost all of these folks won't be able to pay their bill let alone an additional back payment.
All I'm arguing is that there are much better ways to handle the situation. Those that truly can't afford it need help, they don't need their water cut off. Those that can afford it but just haven't paid because the water kept flowing anyway, they need information and perhaps help with a budget, they don't need their water cut off. Those that can afford it but haven't paid because they are selfish and think it should be free, THEIR water should be cut off. But you can't tell who's who by sending out crews to cut off the water to anybody who owes $150.
Posted on 7/23/14 at 12:30 pm to Korkstand
quote:
Why didn't you bold where I said "and following through"? Letting it go for a year is not following through, it makes people think they don't care.
Because DWSD already did. They sent shutoff notices in May and then followed through. So they end of your earlier post is irrelevant.
quote:
ep, but they are shutting off people who are $150 or more behind (and, of course, some owed thousands), and people didn't know about payment plans until after the shut-offs began.
Look, people get their water shut off all over the country all the time, and they get upset. Only in Detroit are people marching the streets over it.
Right. I think even the most ardent conservative posters sympathize with people who can't pay their bills. But then to take to the streets demanding equitable settlement is a slap in the face to the 99.9% of folks who pay their bills.
quote:
It's already been discussed and shown that many of them are able to pay, and that seems to be the prevailing conservative argument in this thread. It has even been argued that NOBODY could POSSIBLY be so poor as to not be able to afford a $65 water bill.
All I'm arguing is that there are much better ways to handle the situation. Those that truly can't afford it need help, they don't need their water cut off. Those that can afford it but just haven't paid because the water kept flowing anyway, they need information and perhaps help with a budget, they don't need their water cut off. Those that can afford it but haven't paid because they are selfish and think it should be free, THEIR water should be cut off. But you can't tell who's who by sending out crews to cut off the water to anybody who owes $150.
Those that can't afford to pay their bills should probably be in a shelter somewhere.
Posted on 7/23/14 at 12:32 pm to Pinecone Repair
quote:They didn't.
I don't think anyone wanted their water to be shut off either. I just don't think they believed it would happen.
quote:All I'm saying is that thousands of water departments handle notices and shut-offs just fine, without making national news and prompting statements from the fricking UN.
I bet many notices were given. How many notices should be given? Should the 100th say " we're shutting off your water for nonpayment- serious,you guys"?
quote:And the water dept. ignored them, too.
But they were already on a payment plan....that they totally ignored.
Posted on 7/23/14 at 12:52 pm to Korkstand
I'm glad this is still going.
To continue from last night:
Quite right. My brain fart.
Those that can't pay their bills in Detroit...but we are getting off on a tangent here. You accused me of making broad generalities and that's exactly what you have done here. I am challenging you to find even one substantiated case of someone who lives in extreme poverty, doesn't waste money on bullshite they don't need, and has had their water shut off. You seem supremely confident that this is the case for most of those in Detroit (or at least that's how I interpret your position), so it shouldn't be that hard. I've provided the evidence for my position, which you ignored. What you've provided up until now is proof of nothing more than an extremely small portion of the population is considered "poor". This isn't news to anyone, and has frick all to do with the issue we are discussing.
To continue from last night:
quote:
Households are not people.
Quite right. My brain fart.
quote:
And your "generous" 5%, is that of the entire population, or of those claiming they can't afford rising water bills? And where did you pull that number from?
Those that can't pay their bills in Detroit...but we are getting off on a tangent here. You accused me of making broad generalities and that's exactly what you have done here. I am challenging you to find even one substantiated case of someone who lives in extreme poverty, doesn't waste money on bullshite they don't need, and has had their water shut off. You seem supremely confident that this is the case for most of those in Detroit (or at least that's how I interpret your position), so it shouldn't be that hard. I've provided the evidence for my position, which you ignored. What you've provided up until now is proof of nothing more than an extremely small portion of the population is considered "poor". This isn't news to anyone, and has frick all to do with the issue we are discussing.
Posted on 7/23/14 at 12:56 pm to jamboybarry
quote:They sent notices which some claim they didn't receive (I'm sure most won't believe that), and they are offering both assistance and payment plans but many don't know about them until after their water gets shut off. So yeah, they are "following through" in pretty much the same incompetent way that they allowed the delinquency to get so high in the first place.
Because DWSD already did. They sent shutoff notices in May and then followed through. So they end of your earlier post is irrelevant.
Posted on 7/23/14 at 12:58 pm to Korkstand
quote:
All I'm saying is that thousands of water departments handle notices and shut-offs just fine, without making national news and prompting statements from the fricking UN.
As has been brought up multiple times, this is a catch 22.
If they shut off water after 3 months, it's inhumane because they aren't giving enough time. If they wait a year, it's inhumane because the bill has grown beyond their ability to pay.
The painful solution is to cut people off who don't pay their bill. I know this isn't the most ideal outcome, but having real responsibility means having real consequences.
Posted on 7/23/14 at 12:58 pm to Korkstand
quote:
They sent notices which some claim they didn't receive (I'm sure most won't believe that), and they are offering both assistance and payment plans but many don't know about them until after their water gets shut off.
IMHO it's not the service provider's responsibility to provide delinquent customers with repayment plan notices.
Customers did not pay bills
DWSD sent out shut off notices
DWSD shut off service
Seems cut and dry to me
quote:
they allowed the delinquency to get so high in the first place.
You're right. They should have cut most of those folks shite off after 3 months of non payment.
Posted on 7/23/14 at 1:07 pm to CptRusty
quote:Yeah, and you pointed us in this direction. It's quite obvious that many people in Detroit are very, very poor.
Those that can't pay their bills in Detroit...but we are getting off on a tangent here.
quote:So, you won't be happy until I go up to Detroit, meet a poor family, take photos, and return with a signed statement of poverty?
You accused me of making broad generalities and that's exactly what you have done here. I am challenging you to find even one substantiated case of someone who lives in extreme poverty, doesn't waste money on bullshite they don't need, and has had their water shut off.
quote:Detroit is at half the medium income of the rest of the nation. Half! And the poverty rate is 3X the rest of the nation. So, let's go with the number 866,000 housholds in "extreme poverty" in the US, and with about 118m households in the US, that puts us at about 0.75% in extreme poverty. Now, triple that rate for Detroit and we have approximately 2.25% of Detroit should be in extreme poverty. Multiply times the population of Detroit of 700k, and we get about 15,750 households in Detroit that are in extreme poverty. Care to guess how many have had their water shut off?
You seem supremely confident that this is the case for most of those in Detroit (or at least that's how I interpret your position), so it shouldn't be that hard. I've provided the evidence for my position, which you ignored. What you've provided up until now is proof of nothing more than an extremely small portion of the population is considered "poor". This isn't news to anyone, and has frick all to do with the issue we are discussing.
Posted on 7/23/14 at 1:15 pm to CptRusty
quote:That's bullshite. People all over the country have their water cut off after less than 3 months, and there aren't many places where it's a rampant problem because that's how it should happen.
As has been brought up multiple times, this is a catch 22.
If they shut off water after 3 months, it's inhumane because they aren't giving enough time. If they wait a year, it's inhumane because the bill has grown beyond their ability to pay.
quote:Agreed. I just also believe that a city has a responsibility to its citizens. That is NOT to say it has a responsibility to provide free water. It just has to be responsible enough to not get to a point where it is cutting off the water to its residents wholesale.
The painful solution is to cut people off who don't pay their bill. I know this isn't the most ideal outcome, but having real responsibility means having real consequences.
Posted on 7/23/14 at 1:21 pm to Korkstand
Gotta love the grandma in the blue t'shirt: "Michigan Welfare Rights Organization".
Its now become a "Right" as opposed to a short term helping hand.
Its now become a "Right" as opposed to a short term helping hand.
Posted on 7/23/14 at 1:21 pm to Korkstand
quote:
So, you won't be happy until I go up to Detroit, meet a poor family, take photos, and return with a signed statement of poverty?
I'm happy as can be. I'm just going to continue to call your position out as pure conjecture until you provide even one case that proves otherwise.
quote:
Care to guess how many have had their water shut off?
You're suggesting, again, that the vast majority of those who have had their water shut off are living in "extreme poverty"...a position I will concede would justify increased judiciousness when it comes to removal of service...
BUT...the reality of the situation doesn't quite align with that claim:
quote:
Latimer says 60 percent of the department’s customers show up to pay their bills within 24 hours of being shut off, and most of the rest pay up a couple of days after that. Latimer appears to take this as proof that customers can afford to pay, but are just being irresponsible citizens, taking advantage of the system as much as they can.
I take it this is where you got your stats from earlier?
and to address your accusations of the utility company being unwilling or unable to meet these people half way:
quote:
However, many of her neighbors who could not afford to settle their debts instead chose to pay a local handyman $30 to have their water turned back on illegally. Detroiters in neighborhoods across the city who cannot face their accumulated water debts—even with the department’s offer to only collect 30 percent initially— are opting for the same solution.
This post was edited on 7/23/14 at 1:23 pm
Posted on 7/23/14 at 1:32 pm to CptRusty
Korkstand's bizarre line of thinking is that because they didn't do it in the only way HE deems fit, ie turn off their water within one month of no payment, then Detroit can't do anything about it.
Well they can, they can charge their customers more. That he says they already can't pay the lesser amount.
Liberal logic.
Well they can, they can charge their customers more. That he says they already can't pay the lesser amount.
Liberal logic.
Posted on 7/23/14 at 1:36 pm to CptRusty
quote:From the article you linked:
I'm just going to continue to call your position out as pure conjecture until you provide even one case that proves otherwise.
quote:
Walker, a 48-year-old single mother of two, lost her job as an in-home caregiver in 2010 and has since been cleaning and cooking in acquaintances’ houses a couple of times a week to try and make ends meet. She had to borrow money from her mother to pay off her initial $300 water bill.
The rest of the money Walker owes to the water department will be added on to her future statements, meaning her monthly bills will be over $100 for the foreseeable future. This is an amount she cannot afford, she says. Another shut-off looms around the corner. “I’ll pay when I have the money, but if I don’t have the money, what can I do?” she asks.
quote:But go ahead and call it "pure conjecture" because I can't prove they don't own a fricking Xbox. Like I said, look outside your bubble.
Even Detroiters who have fronted the money, such as Heard, cannot necessarily afford to do so, by any fair standard. While Heard said paying her water bill has now climbed to the top of her priority list, that has come at the expense of being able to make rent or pay her electricity and gas bills, she says.
quote:Again, from your article, yeah, people can scrap up or borrow enough to get it turned back on, but that is a far cry from being able to afford it.
You're suggesting, again, that the vast majority of those who have had their water shut off are living in "extreme poverty"...a position I will concede would justify increased judiciousness when it comes to removal of service...
BUT...the reality of the situation doesn't quite align with that claim:quote:
Latimer says 60 percent of the department’s customers show up to pay their bills within 24 hours of being shut off, and most of the rest pay up a couple of days after that. Latimer appears to take this as proof that customers can afford to pay, but are just being irresponsible citizens, taking advantage of the system as much as they can.
quote:No, I accused them of cutting off water before formally making customers aware of financial help.
and to address your accusations of the utility company being unwilling or unable to meet these people half way
Posted on 7/23/14 at 1:41 pm to Korkstand
quote:
But go ahead and call it "pure conjecture" because I can't prove they don't own a fricking Xbox.
Done. Conjecture.
Furthermore:
quote:
lost her job as an in-home caregiver in 2010 and has since been cleaning and cooking in acquaintances’ houses a couple of times a week
So she's had 4 years to find a job and couldn't even locate a McDonalds to flip burgers at? Here's some conjecture from me: She didn't want to find a job. She had no motivation to do so because all of her needs were being provided for her.
quote:
Like I said, look outside your bubble.
You ever been to a 3rd world country? I have. Several times for months on end. Here's a bit of outside the bubble knowledge for you:
We don't have "poor" people in the USA. We have a bunch of people who think they're poor because they have never seen what actual poverty is.
quote:
Again, from your article, yeah, people can scrap up or borrow enough to get it turned back on, but that is a far cry from being able to afford it.
more conjecture and poorly formed arguments with nothing to substantiate it.
quote:
No, I accused them of cutting off water before formally making customers aware of financial help.
quote:
even with the department’s offer to only collect 30 percent initially
was this an informal offer? how do you know?
This post was edited on 7/23/14 at 1:46 pm
Posted on 7/23/14 at 1:48 pm to Fun Bunch
quote:That's not how I deem it fit, that's the way it has been proven to work all over the country without prompting marches and international attention.
Korkstand's bizarre line of thinking is that because they didn't do it in the only way HE deems fit, ie turn off their water within one month of no payment
quote:What? They absolutely have to do something about it. They have to do something about rampant delinquency, and they have to do something about the roots of that problem: poverty and high water costs.
then Detroit can't do anything about it.
Posted on 7/23/14 at 2:04 pm to CptRusty
quote:I got that from the same article you quoted. Why in the frick can you use a quote from it to support your argument, but I can't use a quote from it to support mine? Your quote says "look, they paid up! they can afford it!" without considering where the money came from. My quote says one place it came from, but that doesn't even fricking matter because your mind is already made up: these people are worthless.
So she's had 4 years to find a job and couldn't even locate a McDonalds to flip burgers at? Here's some conjecture from me: She didn't want to find a job. She had no motivation to do so because all of her needs were being provided for her.
quote:Ah, so your problem is you can't relate to the American poor? Anything above no-pot-to-piss-in isn't poor?
You ever been to a 3rd world country? I have. Several times for months on end. Here's a bit of outside the bubble knowledge for you:
We don't have "poor" people in the USA. We have a bunch of people who think they're poor because they have never seen what actual poverty is.
quote:That offer is on the webpage for the department. Hardly formal. These people pay their internet bills but not their water bills?!quote:was this an informal offer?
even with the department’s offer to only collect 30 percent initially
quote:Because people are quoted as claiming they did not receive formal notice that their service was going to be turned off.
how do you know?
And the key word in my statement was "before", not "formally". I used the word because, again, the article you linked said it.
And this is all beside the point, and you are continuing down this tangent to take focus off of my actual point, which is THIS SITUATION IS TOTALLY UNNECESSARY AND IS BEING HANDLED TERRIBLY.
Posted on 7/23/14 at 2:07 pm to Korkstand
quote:
Now, triple that rate for Detroit and we have approximately 2.25% of Detroit should be in extreme poverty. Multiply times the population of Detroit of 700k, and we get about 15,750 households in Detroit that are in extreme poverty. Care to guess how many have had their water shut off?
So there is one person living in each household???
They probably have an average of around 5 people living in each household, so now we're down to only 3,150 households in Detroit that are living in extreme poverty . Progress !!!
Posted on 7/23/14 at 2:11 pm to Korkstand
I googled shut off notices and found that there are a lot of ads around Detroit for various organizations that offer to help people pay their bills. It looked like news agencies were including this info in their coverage. Plus i cannot believe there was no mention of help on the shut off notices.
I also found this- maybe this will catch on!!!! Free water for all!!!
I also found this- maybe this will catch on!!!! Free water for all!!!
This post was edited on 7/23/14 at 2:17 pm
Posted on 7/23/14 at 2:15 pm to Pinecone Repair
quote:
I also found this- maybe this will catch on!!!! Free water for all!!!
fricking sad. So now the water department has to go out and cut that shite out of the ground and replace the valve. Whos gonna pay for that?
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