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Started By
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re: There are a lot of "conservatives" who want to end the MAGA/America First Populism.
Posted on 10/5/23 at 1:12 pm to boosiebadazz
Posted on 10/5/23 at 1:12 pm to boosiebadazz
quote:I am not sure that this is fair.
MAGA/America First movement ... Has no first order principles other than complete and utter fealty to Donald Trump
Jingoism and xenophobia seem to be the primary elements of the movement. Trump (an opportunist) just recognized those sentiments, arguable embraced them and certainly gave them voice.
This post was edited on 10/5/23 at 1:16 pm
Posted on 10/5/23 at 1:13 pm to Antoninus
quote:
Jingoism and xenophobia seem to be the primary elements of the movement. Trump just took advantage of those sentiments and gave them voice.
Sovereignty is now xenophobia in the mind of leftists.
Sign me up.
Posted on 10/5/23 at 1:15 pm to Antoninus
quote:
I am not sure that this is fair. Jingoism and xenophobia seem to be the primary elements of the movement. Trump just took advantage of those sentiments and gave them voice.
I think a real danger to MAGA, and more broadly for the culture war, is that the culture war is now centered around Trump himself. There are obviously culture wars issues that aren’t Trump. Abortion, gay marriage, etc. but for many base conservatives the most important social questions of our time are all about Trump. It’s gotten to the point where people who are, as has been pointed out in this thread, far to the right of Trump get called RINOs for mild disagreements
Posted on 10/5/23 at 1:16 pm to Captain Rumbeard
quote:
And the reason for that is because he will actually do you guys serious harm if he gets in.
by promoting Leftist economics?
Posted on 10/5/23 at 1:17 pm to SlowFlowPro
Leftist compared to what? A conservative ideal? A libertarian ideal? Or the Status quo?
A policy which is left of the ideal but right of the status quo is progress in a conservative direction, is it not? We do not live in a theoretical world of black and white but a greyscale globe of nuance and contradictions.
A policy which is left of the ideal but right of the status quo is progress in a conservative direction, is it not? We do not live in a theoretical world of black and white but a greyscale globe of nuance and contradictions.
This post was edited on 10/5/23 at 1:20 pm
Posted on 10/5/23 at 1:18 pm to Antoninus
quote:
xenophobia
What sort of idiot looks at the invasion at our Southern border and dismisses it as "xenophobia".......
Oh I forgot what your REAL user handle is....
Posted on 10/5/23 at 1:19 pm to kingbob
quote:
As such, libertarianism on an international scale tends to lead to a regulatory race to the bottom that impoverishes American workers in exchange for building up Communist nations.
We were built up more an faster than China was during its capitalist-inspired emergence.
Some American workers did fall behind because they refused to adapt. This is no different than any other advancing society, though, and that advanced society cannot exist where these people are paid a "living wage" by redistributing money from the productive class.
Posted on 10/5/23 at 1:20 pm to kingbob
quote:
Leftist compared to what?
Capitalism aka free trade aka freedom.
Posted on 10/5/23 at 1:20 pm to MAADFACTS
quote:The Trumpist embrace of the term "RINO" is an interesting case study. The simple fact is that diehard Trump loyalists are not a majority in the GOP (though arguably a plurality), yet they assert that essentially any GOP voter (or officeholder) outside their group is Republican "in name only," when those persons are in fact greater in number within the party than are the diehard Trumpists.
people who are ... far to the right of Trump get called RINOs for mild disagreements
Posted on 10/5/23 at 1:21 pm to Antoninus
quote:
Jingoism
Mexicans loving their country = AWESOME!
Nigerians loving their country = AWESOME!
Americans loving their country and wanting the invasion stopped = ORANGE MAN BAD JINGOIST BRAINWASHING!!!!
Posted on 10/5/23 at 1:22 pm to Antoninus
quote:
when those persons are in fact greater in number within the party than are the diehard Trumpists.
Bush loving Warmongers have destroyed the GOP, yet you bitch incessantly about Trump....you sound....mental....
Posted on 10/5/23 at 1:22 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
We were built up more an faster than China was during its capitalist-inspired emergence. Some American workers did fall behind because they refused to adapt. This is no different than any other advancing society, though, and that advanced society cannot exist where these people are paid a "living wage" by redistributing money from the productive class.
From the Pat Buchanan article on trade I posted up thread:
quote:
From the Civil War to the 20th century, U.S. economic policy was grounded in the Morrill Tariffs, named for Vermont Congressman and Senator Justin Morrill who, as early as 1857, had declared: “I am for ruling America for the benefit, first, of Americans, and, for the ‘rest of mankind’ afterwards.” William McKinley declared, four years before being elected president: “Free trade results in our giving our money ... our manufactures and our markets to other nations. ... It will bring widespread discontent. It will revolutionize our values.” Campaigning in 1892, McKinley said, “Open competition between high-paid American labor and poorly paid European labor will either drive out of existence American industry or lower American wages.” Substitute “Asian labor” for “European labor” and is this not a fair description of what free trade did to U.S. manufacturing these last 25 years? Some $12 trillion in trade deficits, arrested wages for our workers, six million manufacturing jobs lost, 55,000 factories and plants shut down. What did the Protectionists produce?
From 1869 to 1900, GDP quadrupled. Budget surpluses were run for 27 straight years. The U.S. debt was cut two-thirds to 7 percent of GDP. Commodity prices fell 58 percent. U.S. population doubled, but real wages rose 53 percent. Economic growth averaged 4 percent a year.
Under Warren Harding, Cal Coolidge and the Fordney-McCumber Tariff, GDP growth from 1922 to 1927 hit 7 percent, an all-time record.
Economic patriotism put America first, and made America first.
Of GOP free traders, the steel magnate Joseph Wharton said it well: “Republicans who are shaky on protection are shaky all over.”
This post was edited on 10/5/23 at 1:24 pm
Posted on 10/5/23 at 1:28 pm to MAADFACTS
quote:
“Open competition between high-paid American labor and poorly paid European labor will either drive out of existence American industry or lower American wages.”
And you know what ended up happening, right?
An "invasion" (to use the parlance of our times) by those very Europeans (sounds familiar).
Also, comparing primary and early-secondary economies to tertiary and quaternary economies is not exactly advisable.
One of the main drags of redistributive tariffs is a devolved economy.
quote:
Some $12 trillion in trade deficits, arrested wages for our workers, six million manufacturing jobs lost, 55,000 factories and plants shut down. What did the Protectionists produce?
And watch our GDP increase and our living standards lap the world
Why are you obsessed with promoting antiquated, inefficient lower-level manufacturing jobs at the expense of our modern/advancing, efficient, higher-level economic outputs?
You can only fund your dream of devolving the US economy to be based around lower-level manufacturing by siphoning from the productive areas of our economy. This remove innovation in modern economies like tech, finances, science, higher-level manufacturing, etc.
Posted on 10/5/23 at 1:33 pm to SlowFlowPro
Finally, some points that push the conversation forward
Posted on 10/5/23 at 1:34 pm to davyjones
quote:
I’ll just give my briefest understanding of populism, and you see where yours comes down on mine in comparison…… It pits the “elite class,” be it politically speaking and/or socially and/or economically against the “ordinary class” (“the people”) and “the people” caught up in it can and likely do concurrently retain nationalist, socialist, liberal or conservative “principles”.
I also like this post a lot
Posted on 10/5/23 at 1:36 pm to kingbob
quote:
Leftist compared to what? A conservative ideal? A libertarian ideal? Or the Status quo? A policy which is left of the ideal but right of the status quo is progress in a conservative direction, is it not? We do not live in a theoretical world of black and white but a greyscale globe of nuance and contradictions.
Dig, this one too.
Just bumping these because I felt bad letting them sink in the middle of my on going flame war
Posted on 10/5/23 at 1:50 pm to SlowFlowPro
I am really enjoying this discussion, btw. Great point’s being made by several posters in this thread, SFP included.
I think the reality is that free market libertarianist ideals combined with constitutional federalism of the type described by a strict construction of Article I, Section 8 of the Constitution is the best long term strategy for building a sustainable and economically prosperous nation.
The issues always lie in the short term crisis and the transitions:
To what extent should negative externalities like pollution or common resource depletion play verses the free market?
To what extent should or can government break up/protect the population from exploitative monopolies?
How best can we balance the comparative advantage of outsourcing manufacturing and resource extraction to the third world with the strategic disadvantages that opens us up to in times of logistical uncertainty from war or natural disasters? Should some resources be done here simple because if the supply chain is disrupted we cannot function without that resource? If so, how much should be done to keep that resource industry alive here?
Should all entitlements be completely abolished to force greater work force participation and place downward pressure on wages and inflation?
At what points should we leverage short term suffering verses long term sustainability and growth?
I think the reality is that free market libertarianist ideals combined with constitutional federalism of the type described by a strict construction of Article I, Section 8 of the Constitution is the best long term strategy for building a sustainable and economically prosperous nation.
The issues always lie in the short term crisis and the transitions:
To what extent should negative externalities like pollution or common resource depletion play verses the free market?
To what extent should or can government break up/protect the population from exploitative monopolies?
How best can we balance the comparative advantage of outsourcing manufacturing and resource extraction to the third world with the strategic disadvantages that opens us up to in times of logistical uncertainty from war or natural disasters? Should some resources be done here simple because if the supply chain is disrupted we cannot function without that resource? If so, how much should be done to keep that resource industry alive here?
Should all entitlements be completely abolished to force greater work force participation and place downward pressure on wages and inflation?
At what points should we leverage short term suffering verses long term sustainability and growth?
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