re: The right is divided

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Do you not think conditions were different then?

I can prove it if you'd like.

That only works to point out hypocrisy if there really are no substantive differences.

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And Trump’s supporters can likewise claim things are much different now than they were 10 or 15 years ago and they are voting accordingly. The point here is these endless “debates” over what GOP politician is a more “principled” conservative often depends on whose ox is getting gored.

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It will cause a recession

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Which was also the same argument in favor of bailouts in 2008-09, except replace “recession” with “depression.” The people who were against those bailouts were unfortunately labeled economically illiterate populists as well. They weren’t economically illiterate though, they knew letting it all fail was going to cause a shock on the magnitude of the 30’s, but it needed to be done so that we didn’t continue down that path into the situation we’re in and continuing down.

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Which was also the same argument in favor of bailouts in 2008-09,

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This isnt an argument for, its fact.

I'm telling you what will occur.

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I suppose it is Rorschach Blot scenario. The trend-line that stands out to me is that the debt has become a self-replicating blob that has seen exponential growth over both Democon and Republicrat administrations.

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Right.

We've propped up the economy with so much debt there are few tools left to deal with a slowdown, when it occurs.

This isnt just a knock on Trump, its every single politician in office because they realize to get re-elected, economic indicators have to be kept reasonable or they will lose their job.

Its easier to kick the can down the road than it is to make a stand. We're kind of stuck here until someone is willing to take tht risk.

The deeper we get, the harder it will be to resist kicking the can.

The bailouts signaled that we could not tolerate market corrections.

Its just gotten worse from there.

I really miss when this place was in full support of Austrian economics. Those were the good ole days.

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And Trump’s supporters can likewise claim things are much different now than they were 10 or 15 years ago and they are voting accordingly.

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They won't have to. I already did.

You want me to admit that the way Regan accomplished what he accomplished wouldn't work now? Done. Sorry, I thought that implication was baked in the cake.

But the fact that you equate HOW a politician advances an agenda with what motivates or gives rise to that agenda tells me you don't comprehend what is being discussed.

Regan was a conservative who existed in an environment in which he sometimes had to agree to things that ran counter to his philosophy in order to enact the things that he did believe in or accomplish greater goals. But those conditions didn't cause him to believe in what he believed in (or not). Those came from underlying principles. I can list at least many of them if you like.

Trump has never agreed to anything that ran counter to his agenda. Everything he's done has been because he wanted to do it.

So if you think Trump is a true conservative operating according to underlying conservative principles, let's list the principles. I'll start.

One principle that has been historically embraced by conservatives that Trump has consistently also embraced is the principle of directing foreign policy by being strong and showing the willingness to use force and intervene if necessary in foreign affairs (note that this is interestingly the opposite of the populist base, who have been listening to Huckster Carlson for four years and who amazingly just ignore that Trump has never been and does not intend to become an isolationist).

So that's one.

Go ahead and list some more. 2nd Amendment rights? Hmmm. Not so much. Trump likes "Take the guns first, then worry about due process." That also means he's not huge on the 4th amendment and other due process amendments.

Abortion? No, Trump is pretty lax on that one. Doesn't seem to care one way or the other, really, will go whichever way the wind blows.

Shrinking government? We'll see. I have hopes for DOGE. But past history makes me only cautiously optimistic. I'll hope that the $8.1Trillion added to the debt between 2016-2020 was mostly not of his design.

First Amendment rights? Well, like most populists it's fine for me, but not for thee (I'm referring to Knight First Amendment Inst. at Columbia Univ. v. Trump, which he lost in 2017). He doesn't like it when Facebook, et. al, censors him or other conservative voices, but he wanted to block people who were critical from his Twitter account).

Government not picking winners and losers (AKA, personal freedom and responsibility)? Nah. "No taxes for YOU, no taxes for YOU, no taxes for YOU!"

Free market capitalism? Nope. As Roger has posted, he's a mercantilist protectionist.

The constitution in general? Well, he did appoint mostly constitutionalist judges, but he clearly still doesn't always understand how the constitution limits his power and he's clearly frustrated when it does.

What you got?

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The people who were against those bailouts were unfortunately labeled economically illiterate populists as well.

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Anybody who used that label was either a fool or following Saul Alisnky's Rule for Radicals and deliberately accusing their opponents of doing what they knew they were doing.

Again, Nikky Haley is hated here, but she had the guts to bring up SS in this context during the election cycle.

We've got to support the people who will do so. Because no one will fix it because of us.

We've got to stop demonizing anyone who threatens that sacred cow because Nikki Haley isn't really the enemy of SS.

Math is the enemy of SS.

And ignoring math is the enemy of the country.

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Even if so, Trump was less of war-monger than McCain so that works out in the wash.

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How do you figure?

Trump assassinated Qasem Soleimani against international law, bombed Syria twice, and declared Iran's military a terrorist organization for the purpose of sending them a message that he could stick his foot up their butt any time he chose without Congressional approval.

Again, those of you who just parrot Huckster Carlson are amazing in your capacity to deny reality.

Trump is a "Peace through Strength" guy. He's used that exact phrase during the course of this campaign and that's exactly how he governed the first time.

He's not an isolationist pussy. He wasn't an isolationist pussy the first time.
He's already said he's not going to be an isolationist pussy this time.

No matter how much Huckster tells y'all that's what you want, Trump ain't it.

If that's what you wanted you shoulda voted for someone else.

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What are your takes on how we come together?

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The GOP is divided. The people are not.

Don't over complicate it. We are tired with the old regime 10000% They dont' know the first things about being conservative or republican.

In 2024, the conservative PEOPLE are only trying to work out what it means to have less laws and more individual freedoms for people while revitalizing lost principles, ethics and morals.

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This isnt just a knock on Trump, its every single politician in office because they realize to get re-elected, economic indicators have to be kept reasonable or they will lose their job.

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You can knock Trump — it is no skin off my nose! I recognize that you are much more critical of Trump’s populist tendencies than I.

I also admit upfront I personally love the man because he is a fighter who refuses to play by the Marquess of Queensberry Rules that are selectively and self-servingly applied by the MSM. Yet as much as I was thrilled in 2016 with Trump’s victory, I maintained then that in many ways, Trump will simply exacerbate the continuing crisis.

Trump’s signing of the CARES act was a fulfillment of that prediction. But this simply underscores the one point I return to again and again on this forum: nothing fundamentally changes until we return to a sound monetary system — NOTHING.