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re: The Law by Frédéric Bastiat
Posted on 6/23/26 at 10:19 am to 4cubbies
Posted on 6/23/26 at 10:19 am to 4cubbies
quote:If it helps, think of a will as being a decision a moment in time immediately prior to death as to whom the property goes.
My grandfather owned a lot of land, mineral rights, and hunting leases. He died 15 years ago. My mother and uncle now own those things as his heirs. My grandfather is the person who originally acquired the land. My mother and uncle's claim derives entirely from his wishes regarding its disposition. He may have willed it to his descendants, but why should a deceased person's wishes determine the disposition of property after that person no longer exists? Again, I'm not proposing an alternative to succession or wills, merely questioning their premise.
The property will go somewhere. Whether the current owner decides or the state decides is the question. We just give the person who holds the property in life the decision of where it goes—many reasons for this. The current owner is the person in the best position to know who will take care of the property and to avoid waste. Parents have a duty to provide for their dependents, and this allows them to do it in a prudent manner.
They don’t always make the best decision, but as a rule, they’re in the best position to make the best decision.
1
Posted on 6/23/26 at 10:22 am to stuntman
quote:Where do people get their natural rights
I do believe, however, that if people were allowed to protect their natural rights
Posted on 6/23/26 at 10:24 am to AllbyMyRelf
The innate understanding that you own yourself. That you have a right to protect yourself. The survival instinct.
Posted on 6/23/26 at 10:25 am to stuntman
quote:What if I don’t have this innate understanding? Does it mean I don’t have natural rights?
The innate understanding that you own yourself.
Posted on 6/23/26 at 10:27 am to 4cubbies
quote:
What came first: laws or rights?
Our rights come from God.
Posted on 6/23/26 at 10:28 am to AllbyMyRelf
Who is voluntarily looking to be murdered or starved to death? Who is voluntarily looking to be mugged, tortured, or kidnapped?
Babies cry when they're hungry or get hit. That comes from somewhere,, and it's not because philosopher told them. It's because of the survival instinct.
Babies cry when they're hungry or get hit. That comes from somewhere,, and it's not because philosopher told them. It's because of the survival instinct.
Posted on 6/23/26 at 10:30 am to 4cubbies
quote:
The Law by Frédéric Bastiat
I bet he took a lot of grief in school over that moniker.
Posted on 6/23/26 at 10:34 am to AllbyMyRelf
quote:
It is not possible to ascribe a different cause outside of God to morality or the creation of goodness and order if you are a Christian.
Is it possible for a non-Christian to describe the same morality or goodness without reference or experience with Christianity?
quote:
As Christians, we should distinguish between how morality is known and what its source is. We can know many moral truths through reason alone, and don’t need to appeal to scripture in every instance. But if Christianity is true, goodness itself ultimately exists because all being and order derive from God. We can explain morality through natural law, human flourishing, and rational nature, but those realities themselves are grounded in God’s creative act.
The problem is that we were having a non-religious discussion about humanity, which has existed without Christianity for the vast majority of its time on earth. This just frames the discussion in a way that (1) prohibits any actual discussion and (2) insulates your position from any crituque/commentary.
Posted on 6/23/26 at 10:50 am to stuntman
quote:
Imo it's rooted in the survival instinct. It's there before we learn about religion or the devine.
And before natural law?
Is survival the basis of property rights?
Posted on 6/23/26 at 10:53 am to AllbyMyRelf
It almost sounds like inheritance or posthumous property rights are just a convenient way to deal with someone else's stuff.
Posted on 6/23/26 at 10:55 am to stuntman
I would love to read short bios of you and AllbyMyRelf btw. I hope you both take this as the compliment it's intended to be.
Posted on 6/23/26 at 11:00 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:Yes, as stated, many moral questions can be answered through reason. As to the source of morality, anyone can describe what they think is the cause, but ultimately someone is right and someone is wrong. If Christianity is right, then everyone else is wrong.
Is it possible for a non-Christian to describe the same morality or goodness without reference or experience with Christianity?
quote:This is only true if you presuppose that Christianity is wrong. But also, I don’t think I closed the door to non-Christian discussion. I said that the question as to the source of objective morality (if you believe it exists) must be answered somehow, and then I gave how I answer it. Once the OP said she was a Christian, then I continued that train of thought, because assuming you are a Christian, there is a logical conclusion that really only leads one place. I would not have continued that train of thought if she said she was not a Christian.
The problem is that we were having a non-religious discussion about humanity, which has existed without Christianity for the vast majority of its time on earth. This just frames the discussion in a way that (1) prohibits any actual discussion and (2) insulates your position from any crituque/commentary.
Finally, the Christian natural law perspective is not insulated from critique/ discussion. In fact, that’s mostly how it developed. If you read Aquinas, each section is a set of claims and objections with the structure of a mathematical proof.
Posted on 6/23/26 at 11:03 am to 4cubbies
The survival instinct, that's where the concept of the Natural Law comes from.
Yep, property is foundational to survival.
Yep, property is foundational to survival.
Posted on 6/23/26 at 11:03 am to stuntman
quote:This does not follow from my original question of what if I don’t have an innate understanding that I own myself. My dog is not looking to get killed and also has survival instinct, but I own my dog, and I don’t think of dogs as having natural rights.
Who is voluntarily looking to be murdered or starved to death? Who is voluntarily looking to be mugged, tortured, or kidnapped?
Posted on 6/23/26 at 11:04 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
Is it possible for a non-Christian to describe the same morality or goodness without reference or experience with Christianity?
This is my question, too. Could someone who has never been exposed to the concept of the Christian God still come to know morality through reason? Is morality dependent on revelation, or can it be discovered?
Posted on 6/23/26 at 11:05 am to stuntman
quote:Can you define natural law or explain what it is? And it can’t be “the survival instinct” because the source of the survival instinct can not be the survival instinct.
The survival instinct, that's where the concept of the Natural Law comes from.
Posted on 6/23/26 at 11:07 am to 4cubbies
Appreciate that.
Not much of a bio on me. I'm basically a redneck Neanderthal who owns a small pest control company.
Don't know what caused me to be so interested in economics, philosophy, and first principles, but that bug bit me good.
Not much of a bio on me. I'm basically a redneck Neanderthal who owns a small pest control company.
Don't know what caused me to be so interested in economics, philosophy, and first principles, but that bug bit me good.
Posted on 6/23/26 at 11:14 am to AllbyMyRelf
Every animal has survival instincts. They want to protect their lives. They hunt in packs as well. Cooperation.
What separates us big-time is the ability to conceptualize them and create institutions to secure them.
What separates us big-time is the ability to conceptualize them and create institutions to secure them.
Posted on 6/23/26 at 11:17 am to 4cubbies
quote:I’m not an expert in other legal traditions, but in the Western world, and in English common law specifically, laws surrounding inheritance come from the Roman Catholic Canon Law, which is itself derived from Christian natural law theory and existing Roman civil code.
It almost sounds like inheritance or posthumous property rights are just a convenient way to deal with someone else's stuff.
The belief held by these canon lawyers was that the chief end of law was to promote the good and restrain evil. So when creating or examining existing laws on inheritance, they likely asked themselves, how does this promote the good and restrain the evil.
This doesn’t mean that the Catholic canon law was the only moral answer on how to handle inheritance, but it was “good enough” that it worked to promote the common good in the existing society.
Posted on 6/23/26 at 11:18 am to AllbyMyRelf
quote:
This is only true if you presuppose that Christianity is wrong.
Naw. I'm just describing a wall you've put up to create a space to retreat to.
quote:
Finally, the Christian natural law perspective is not insulated from critique/ discussion. In fact, that’s mostly how it developed.
I imagine this is only possible within the walls you created (that I described above and in the prior post).
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