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The fundamental conundrum

Posted on 4/24/18 at 1:34 pm
Posted by Ag Zwin
Member since Mar 2016
19942 posts
Posted on 4/24/18 at 1:34 pm
Democrats and the left have activism in their DNA. Almost by definition, they believe in "fixing things" via government. Regardless of how many times it's a case of a solution looking for a problem, there is always something government should be DOING.

Conservatives are, again by definition, more inclined to say that less is more, and are left with the more passive argument. It's analogous to proving a negative.

The media has to sell clicks. "Do nothing" does not sell. "Do SOMETHING" does, especially if that something is on behalf of someone who "can't" do it for themselves. Also, the media is overwhelmingly populated by people who want to "make a difference". Again, they must do SOMETHING, or at least call others to.

All of this is just at "the masses" level (a term Reagan hated). At the top of both the media and the DNC are people who KNOW the real effects of their policies and practices, but are driven by power and market share. They say whatever they have to in order for the masses to continue the charade.

So, how does a message of "do less" win people over, when there is (ostensibly) so much to be fixed? Honestly, Trump is the only one I have seen have a shot at it. Efforts against the regulatory and administrative state are a huge first step.

Problem is that he is also pandering to some of the worst parts of the conservative side. Tax cuts can be overdone, especially when we are not reigning in spending. I don't think they went too far this time, but there is not much room left (at least on W-2 income). At some point, though, we have to take on an entitlement mentality that has grown from 14% of federal outlays in 1953 to 72% in 2017. Until someone starts dealing with that, the toilet will continue to flush.

All that aside, I repeat the most basic paradox. How do you rally "the masses" to the idea of government making LESS of a difference in your life, ESPECIALLY in an age where social media will magnify the noise of useful idiots so dramatically?

My issue is that I think the Lefzis will amplify and magnify their hysteria and it will seem like (to the sheep-like masses) that this noise is truly the "will of the people", when it is really just the loudest people.
Posted by LuckyTiger
Someone's Alter
Member since Dec 2008
45188 posts
Posted on 4/24/18 at 1:40 pm to
quote:

So, how does a message of "do less" win people over, when there is (ostensibly) so much to be fixed?

The crux of the issue today is a lack of personal responsibility. Too many people view themselves as victims and too many people want to pander to those “victims” out of self promotion or self loathing.

Personally, I think we are at the knife edge of no return, and, sadly, I think it is more likely than not that the American experiment in democracy is about over.
Posted by Pecker
Rocky Top
Member since May 2015
16674 posts
Posted on 4/24/18 at 1:45 pm to
quote:

So, how does a message of "do less" win people over, when there is (ostensibly) so much to be fixed? Honestly, Trump is the only one I have seen have a shot at it. Efforts against the regulatory and administrative state are a huge first step.


This will always be a problem. It's incredibly difficult to built a platform on "doing nothing," not pushing for any legislation or scaling back previous legislation. Rand Paul has managed to do it, but at a national level it's almost impossible.

Politicians are elected by telling the people everything they can do for them, not by telling people they will leave them be. Or at least that's been the formula thus far.
Posted by FooManChoo
Member since Dec 2012
41669 posts
Posted on 4/24/18 at 1:48 pm to
It always comes back to worldview. The Christian worldview is most compatible with what Conservatives tend to value and it is diametrically opposed to the Liberal/Leftist values and/or ways of accomplishing those values.
Posted by Usafgiles
North Augusta, SC
Member since Oct 2009
1904 posts
Posted on 4/24/18 at 1:55 pm to
quote:

Lefzis will amplify and magnify their hysteria and it will seem like (to the sheep-like masses) that this noise is truly the "will of the people", when it is really just the loudest people.


You were so close to having a substantive post without resulting to childish name calling. So close.

quote:

diametrically opposed to the Liberal/Leftist values


This is a load of shite.
This post was edited on 4/24/18 at 1:56 pm
Posted by Zach
Gizmonic Institute
Member since May 2005
112456 posts
Posted on 4/24/18 at 2:04 pm to
quote:

Lefzis will amplify and magnify their hysteria and it will seem like (to the sheep-like masses) that this noise is truly the "will of the people", when it is really just the loudest people. You were so close to having a substantive post without resulting to childish name calling. So close.


1. He's absolutely right.
2. There is no 'name calling' in the quote.
Posted by Usafgiles
North Augusta, SC
Member since Oct 2009
1904 posts
Posted on 4/24/18 at 2:05 pm to
quote:

There is no 'name calling' in the quote


quote:

Lefzis


so close
Posted by Zach
Gizmonic Institute
Member since May 2005
112456 posts
Posted on 4/24/18 at 2:08 pm to
quote:

Lefzis so close


That's name calling to you? Wow. Just Wow.
Posted by Kafka
I am the moral conscience of TD
Member since Jul 2007
141864 posts
Posted on 4/24/18 at 2:10 pm to
Progressivism, by definition, cannot stop and say "OK, that's enough". If it stopped it would be conservatism.

So Progressivism must go on, seeking to transform.

First they said homosexual unions would be enough. Then homosexual marriage. Then trannies in rest rooms. Then 57 genders. I presume acceptance of incest is next -- after all, who are we to tell anyone who they can love?

I don't want to think about what would come after that.

Posted by Usafgiles
North Augusta, SC
Member since Oct 2009
1904 posts
Posted on 4/24/18 at 2:10 pm to
Using a term (Lef zis) and essentially calling the "left" nazis? Yea I would say that would constitute name calling.


I assume you weren't sharp enough to understand it though. so carry on.
This post was edited on 4/24/18 at 2:11 pm
Posted by Ag Zwin
Member since Mar 2016
19942 posts
Posted on 4/24/18 at 2:20 pm to
quote:

You were so close to having a substantive post without resulting to childish name calling. So close.


Fair enough, but let me be clear. I think 80% or more of Democratic voters are fundamentally decent people voting with their hearts.

"Lefzi" specifically refers to the manipulative leadership and activists I describe in the OP.

The former are not worthy of being labelled like I did, and I apologize for my laziness. The latter absolutely are, and I consider them evil and craven people preying on the good intentions of the 80%.

Your point is well taken, but I stand by my description of the puppetmasters pulling the strings.
Posted by Usafgiles
North Augusta, SC
Member since Oct 2009
1904 posts
Posted on 4/24/18 at 2:24 pm to
quote:

The latter absolutely are, and I consider them evil and craven people preying on the good intentions of the 80%.


I would say the same for both sides, but I get what you are saying and even agree with some of it. That's why I was disappointed with the last couple of lines. It's all good though.
Posted by texridder
The Woodlands, TX
Member since Oct 2017
14172 posts
Posted on 4/24/18 at 2:35 pm to
quote:

Conservatives are, again by definition, more inclined to say that less is more, and are left with the more passive argument. It's analogous to proving a negative.

Not sure about that one.

Can you explain?
Posted by Ag Zwin
Member since Mar 2016
19942 posts
Posted on 4/24/18 at 2:36 pm to
quote:

Not sure about that one.

Can you explain?


Couple of different things in there. What are you specifically asking about? Proclivities of conservatives, or the analogy?
Posted by Zach
Gizmonic Institute
Member since May 2005
112456 posts
Posted on 4/24/18 at 2:42 pm to
quote:

Using a term (Lef zis) and essentially calling the "left" nazis? Yea I would say that would constitute name calling.


Really? Well, I consider leftists a mob of communist non-thinkers driven by emotional group-think reminiscent of the French Revolutionaries who murdered 10s of 1,000s of innocent people without trial, cut open their bodies and paraded around holding their organs and mocking their heads on pikes.

Do you consider that 'name calling'?

I consider it spot on analysis. But maybe you aren't sharp enough to understand it. So, carry on.

Posted by idlewatcher
County Jail
Member since Jan 2012
79069 posts
Posted on 4/24/18 at 2:46 pm to
quote:

I think 80% or more of Democratic voters are fundamentally decent people voting with their hearts.



I think that is true as well, but the left has become so radicalized that groupthink is now their "way" of thinking.

And the loud mouths are the ones who are making waves which makes up a relatively small percentage of Dems.
Posted by Zach
Gizmonic Institute
Member since May 2005
112456 posts
Posted on 4/24/18 at 2:46 pm to
quote:

Couple of different things in there. What are you specifically asking about? Proclivities of conservatives, or the analogy?


I think I can help. The 'less is more' angle can be confused with the 'change' vs. 'stay the same' description.
The latter has no meaning in liberal/conservative.
If a nation is left wing they don't want change to right wing.

The 'less is more' issue is better described as:

a. Left wants govt to do more. A lot more. Basically solve all problems real or perceived.

b. The right is skeptical of a govt with that kind of power over the individual behavior and wary of unintended consequences of govt fiat.
Posted by Ag Zwin
Member since Mar 2016
19942 posts
Posted on 4/24/18 at 3:00 pm to
quote:

b. The right is skeptical of a govt with that kind of power over the individual behavior and wary of unintended consequences of govt fiat.


I think that is putting a more sinister spin on the issue than many (if not most) intend. There is an element of what you say, but, for myself, Reagan's "A Time for choosing" speech carries the basis tenets. (The "diet" line was stupid, but the rest is spot on.)

quote:

We have so many people who can't see a fat man standing beside a thin one without coming to the conclusion the fat man got that way by taking advantage of the thin one. So they're going to solve all the problems of human misery through government and government planning. Well, now, if government planning and welfare had the answer -- and they've had almost 30 years of it -- shouldn't we expect government to read the score to us once in a while? Shouldn't they be telling us about the decline each year in the number of people needing help? The reduction in the need for public housing?

But the reverse is true. Each year the need grows greater; the program grows greater. We were told four years ago that 17 million people went to bed hungry each night. Well that was probably true. They were all on a diet. But now we're told that 9.3 million families in this country are poverty-stricken on the basis of earning less than 3,000 dollars a year. Welfare spending [is] 10 times greater than in the dark depths of the Depression. We're spending 45 billion dollars on welfare. Now do a little arithmetic, and you'll find that if we divided the 45 billion dollars up equally among those 9 million poor families, we'd be able to give each family 4,600 dollars a year. And this added to their present income should eliminate poverty. Direct aid to the poor, however, is only running only about 600 dollars per family. It would seem that someplace there must be some overhead.

Now -- so now we declare "war on poverty," or "You, too, can be a Bobby Baker." Now do they honestly expect us to believe that if we add 1 billion dollars to the 45 billion we're spending, one more program to the 30-odd we have -- and remember, this new program doesn't replace any, it just duplicates existing programs -- do they believe that poverty is suddenly going to disappear by magic? Well, in all fairness I should explain there is one part of the new program that isn't duplicated. This is the youth feature. We're now going to solve the dropout problem, juvenile delinquency, by reinstituting something like the old CCC camps [Civilian Conservation Corps], and we're going to put our young people in these camps. But again we do some arithmetic, and we find that we're going to spend each year just on room and board for each young person we help 4,700 dollars a year. We can send them to Harvard for 2,700! Course, don't get me wrong. I'm not suggesting Harvard is the answer to juvenile delinquency.

But seriously, what are we doing to those we seek to help? Not too long ago, a judge called me here in Los Angeles. He told me of a young woman who'd come before him for a divorce. She had six children, was pregnant with her seventh. Under his questioning, she revealed her husband was a laborer earning 250 dollars a month. She wanted a divorce to get an 80 dollar raise. She's eligible for 330 dollars a month in the Aid to Dependent Children Program. She got the idea from two women in her neighborhood who'd already done that very thing.

Yet anytime you and I question the schemes of the do-gooders, we're denounced as being against their humanitarian goals. They say we're always "against" things -- we're never "for" anything.

Well, the trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so.

Now -- we're for a provision that destitution should not follow unemployment by reason of old age, and to that end we've accepted Social Security as a step toward meeting the problem.


Posted by brian_wilson
Member since Oct 2016
3581 posts
Posted on 4/24/18 at 3:06 pm to
quote:

So Progressivism must go on, seeking to transform.


Pretty much its definition. While I don't think every change is good, our society needs to change. We are facing a fundamental transformation of our economy - there is no going back. We are going to evolve our policies to match this reality. This might mean more gov't intervention in some places, and less in others.
Posted by Ag Zwin
Member since Mar 2016
19942 posts
Posted on 4/24/18 at 3:11 pm to
quote:

Pretty much its definition. While I don't think every change is good, our society needs to change. We are facing a fundamental transformation of our economy - there is no going back. We are going to evolve our policies to match this reality. This might mean more gov't intervention in some places, and less in others.


I don't dispute that. I am not some Ayn Rand devotee that only expounds personal reliance. I have been unemployed and collected the benefits. I would never dispute the need for a social contract.

What I DO dispute is the idea that these benefits are not just as addictive and destructive as a drug that takes you out of society.

That being said, like Reagan says elsewhere in the speech I excerpted above,

quote:

No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. So, governments' programs, once launched, never disappear.

Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth.


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