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Started By
Message
re: The decline of religious faith in America and what that means for our future
Posted on 9/15/22 at 11:31 am to DisplacedBuckeye
Posted on 9/15/22 at 11:31 am to DisplacedBuckeye
quote:
It certainly doesn't make it an objective ruling.
The Founders wrote “ Their creator” instead of “ Our creator” simply to illustrate they were enumerating the people’s rights. Not in some attempt to claim they were excluded from the same rights or somehow didn’t believe in the origin of those rights.
This post was edited on 9/15/22 at 11:32 am
2
Posted on 9/15/22 at 11:51 am to Revelator
quote:
The Founders wrote “ Their creator” instead of “ Our creator” simply to illustrate they were enumerating the people’s rights. Not in some attempt to claim they were excluded from the same rights or somehow didn’t believe in the origin of those rights.
They wrote it because they saw what state religion looked like and recognized the flaws in pretending there is an objective morality that applies to all. They valued individualism and freedom over tribalism and authoritarianism.
Posted on 9/15/22 at 11:54 am to Revelator
quote:
The Founders wrote “ Their creator” instead of “ Our creator” simply to illustrate they were enumerating the people’s rights. Not in some attempt to claim they were excluded from the same rights or somehow didn’t believe in the origin of those rights.
You are 100% correct. This dude doesn’t want to debate. He wants to be vague and pick apart semantic arguments. He will never clearly articulate his side of the argument he will just try to pick apart yours.
The irony is that he says there is no objective truth but he is so utterly convinced that his opinion is objective fact.
TLDR; he’s a clown
Posted on 9/15/22 at 11:58 am to WaWaWeeWa
quote:
The irony is that he says there is no objective truth
Objective morality...
The fact that you can't even get that right says more than I ever could.
Posted on 9/15/22 at 12:02 pm to DisplacedBuckeye
quote:
They wrote it because they saw what state religion looked like and recognized the flaws in pretending there is an objective morality that applies to all. They valued individualism and freedom over tribalism and authoritarianism.
You are changing the argument to religion. Shifting the argument is something you love to do.
This argument started because on page 10 you said objective moral truth “doesn’t exist”
Then, I said the country was founded on objective moral truths (see what I quoted from the DoI)
You responded “this country was founded on secularism”
My point is that the founding fathers believed that there was an objective moral truth derived from God. You haven’t effectively disputed that even though you think you have.
You change the argument to something else and claim victory
Posted on 9/15/22 at 12:06 pm to WaWaWeeWa
quote:
You are changing the argument to religion.
I've done no such thing:
quote:
The decline of religious faith in America and what that means for our future
quote:
My point is that the founding fathers believed that there was an objective moral truth derived from God.
I know what your point was, and we've demonstrated that it was incorrect.
Posted on 9/15/22 at 12:14 pm to WaWaWeeWa
quote:
This dude doesn’t want to debate.
You are attempting to play chess with a pigeon.
He is one of the two biggest trolls on this site who bitch about "trolling"....
Posted on 9/15/22 at 12:16 pm to DisplacedBuckeye
quote:
I know what your point was, and we've demonstrated that it was incorrect.
We?
Yea maybe in your fricked up fantasy world, or maybe it’s a subjective truth. I know! It’s YOUR truth!
Posted on 9/15/22 at 12:16 pm to oogabooga68
quote:
You are attempting to play chess with a pigeon.
The best part is I know he secretly cares because he instantly upvotes his posts and downvotes the responses.
Posted on 9/15/22 at 12:18 pm to DisplacedBuckeye
quote:
They wrote it because they saw what state religion looked like and recognized the flaws in pretending there is an objective morality that applies to all. They valued individualism and freedom over tribalism and authoritarianism.
If the founders intended our government and society to be secular and free from all religious influences, they wouldn’t have written things like my following quote or the many others in that vein.
“ Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”
John Adams
This post was edited on 9/15/22 at 12:20 pm
Posted on 9/15/22 at 12:20 pm to WaWaWeeWa
quote:
We?
Yes. I'll not deny you credit for making my point for me.
Posted on 9/15/22 at 12:24 pm to Revelator
quote:
free from all religious influences
Here is the crux of your misunderstanding. Their intent wasn't to have a populace that is free from all religion. Their intent was to be free from imposition of religion, allowing for the subjective nature of religion, without pretending that an objective standard exists.
Posted on 9/15/22 at 12:33 pm to DisplacedBuckeye
quote:
Their intent was to be free from imposition of religion
Not a single person in this thread has come close to denying this. It’s a completely different argument
Let’s try to be as precise as possible. Do you think the founders believed that morality is objective or subjective?
This post was edited on 9/15/22 at 12:38 pm
Posted on 9/15/22 at 12:36 pm to Revelator
quote:
But that’s only if you don’t possess prefect foreknowledge and know exactly what that baby would have become if allowed to live. We aren’t God and lack this ability.
So you also don’t believe in free will. You believe in fate. Are you a Calvinist? If we are all fated, then it doesn’t matter what we do or think.
Ok I’m going to give you a great example of why god can’t predict the future. Depending on which contradictory creation account you believe (genesis chapter 1 versus 2), God created man and all the animals as a companion. Oh shucks Adam doesn’t like those animals as a companion (he thought he’d like the animals) so he decides well I guess I’ll make sort of a clone of Adam from his rib since the animals didn’t work out as a companion.
Here’s another to ponder: God made man (and woman) and it was good. God was nice enough to put a magic tree in the garden of Eden. If God is all knowing wouldn’t he have known that tempting Adam might have caused him to eat the forbidden fruit? If he knows the future he knows Adam is going to eat it anyway.
Last one. God made man and it was good. He regretted making man when they became wicked. Then he killed nearly all of them in a flood. Then he experienced regret again, and promised not to kill en mass again via a flood (but didn’t say anything about future fire and brimstone - lol). God isn’t all knowing.
Posted on 9/15/22 at 12:38 pm to Squirrelmeister
quote:
So you also don’t believe in free will.
I don't think that follows from foreknowledge of a creator, but if you're a materialist then you don't believe in free will if you stay within a logical framework.
Posted on 9/15/22 at 12:40 pm to WaWaWeeWa
quote:
Not a single person in this thread has come close to denying this.
Look at what I quoted FFS.
Posted on 9/15/22 at 12:42 pm to DisplacedBuckeye
quote:
Their intent was to be free from imposition of religion, a
But I do understand this. The problem is, people have misunderstood what was written to the Dansbury Baptist church about a” wall of separation between the church and state” to imply that religion could never have a place in any form in government, when it meant instead, the government could never force its views on church.
This has been taking to an extremely insane level.
Posted on 9/15/22 at 12:43 pm to Revelator
quote:
But I do understand this.
You didn't demonstrate that in your post.
Posted on 9/15/22 at 12:43 pm to Squirrelmeister
quote:
So you also don’t believe in free will. You believe in fate. Are you a Calvinist? If we are all fated, then it doesn’t matter what we do or think.
I’m not a Calvinist, but God having foreknowledge of an event isn’t the same as him forcing the outcome
quote:
Here’s another to ponder: God made man (and woman) and it was good. God was nice enough to put a magic tree in the garden of Eden. If God is all knowing wouldn’t he have known that tempting Adam might have caused him to eat the forbidden fruit? If he knows the future he knows Adam is going to eat it anyway.
Of course he knew it and provided the antidote for that sin before the foundations of the world.
Your mistake is thinking you must understand all of God’s decisions and motivations in order to make it just.
This post was edited on 9/15/22 at 12:50 pm
Posted on 9/15/22 at 12:45 pm to DisplacedBuckeye
He said influences.
You said “imposition”
You like to subtly change words but it makes a huge difference.
Yes we broke away from England partly because of religious persecution and the founders didn’t want government dictating what religion you can practice or if you are religious at all. That’s imposition.
What John Adams is saying is that he believes for our country to function properly there has to be a belief in a higher power because objective morality stems from that. Without the belief in a higher power he doesn’t see how a system of morals and laws can be derived and survive over time.
You said “imposition”
You like to subtly change words but it makes a huge difference.
Yes we broke away from England partly because of religious persecution and the founders didn’t want government dictating what religion you can practice or if you are religious at all. That’s imposition.
What John Adams is saying is that he believes for our country to function properly there has to be a belief in a higher power because objective morality stems from that. Without the belief in a higher power he doesn’t see how a system of morals and laws can be derived and survive over time.
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