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1
Posted on 5/5/20 at 3:52 pm to honeybadger07
quote:
Ahhhhh there it is....you are invested in this virus being as bad as it can be so that your ideals will be pleased. All makes sense now, or your lack of sense makes sense I should say.
This has nothing to do with interpreting the pneumonia graph accurately.
This post was edited on 5/5/20 at 4:04 pm
Posted on 5/5/20 at 3:52 pm to honeybadger07
quote:
Here is a straight fact for your fact checking book.....Medicaid pays $13k for every covid patient and $39k for every covid patient put on a ventilator.....hmmm makes me wonder what a hospital would do when they are bleeding money because they have shut down all nonessential operations which is their main revenue stream. Now that is an assumption, but is that far fetched to believe is actually happening? Who knows, ask Bud Davis who has already shared his story of his grandmother on here and may god rest her soul.
This has nothing to do with interpreting the pneumonia graph accurately.
This post was edited on 5/5/20 at 4:04 pm
Posted on 5/5/20 at 3:53 pm to Bulldogblitz
quote:
I believe this thread is him stating that he IS one of those experts, if not the preeminent one.
Nah I'm just a PERSON WHO CAN READ GRAPHS AND UNDERSTAND WHERE THE DATA COMES FROM, in a thread full of absolute morons.
Posted on 5/5/20 at 3:55 pm to Microtiger
quote:Angry, I like it!
Nah I'm just a PERSON WHO CAN READ GRAPHS AND UNDERSTAND WHERE THE DATA COMES FROM, in a thread full of absolute morons.
Posted on 5/5/20 at 4:00 pm to Microtiger
For all the people who read what they want from the thread while missing the point, I circled the part of the graph I'm talking about in purple here. Purple is the color that red and blue look like when you put them together, and the color of Barney the Dinosaur.
People are using this as "evidence" that pneumonia deaths have gone way down, and saying this is proof that these deaths are fraudulently being counted as Covid deaths instead of pneumonia deaths, to inflate Covid deaths for political gain.
This isn't true, the graph is trending down because it always trends down, since the actual deaths are not fully updated on the CDC's website for some time. The animated graph below travels through time, as if you were seeing this same graph every week for the past couple of years. You can see that the graph always trails down, but eventually comes up again as the data all comes in. This is exactly what is happening in the graph up top, circled in purple (the Barney color).
Posted on 5/5/20 at 4:01 pm to Jbird
quote:Yeah, we know.
Angry, I like it!
This place loves pissing people off. Liberal tears and all that. frick the truth. frick honesty. It's all about making someone mad. Winning!
Posted on 5/5/20 at 4:03 pm to Microtiger
quote:
It's not even worth it to engage with conspiracy theorists
I was kind of with you for a second in terms of you stating what the entire intent of your post was until this. I think I can attest to the reality of what’s happening. What is their motivation if not monetary? It’s not a conspiracy theory. At least I know for a fact they they intentionally mislabeled COD.
Posted on 5/5/20 at 4:05 pm to Microtiger
quote:
I was trying to say I don't believe there is a coordinated top-down effort to make up and fabricate Covid deaths for ulterior reasons.
Micro, do you believe that there is a large, vocal and pretty powerful contingent of Dems that are politically motivated to inflate COVID numbers? I'm not asking if you think they're doing it. And I'm not suggesting they're hoping for more dead people - once a person is dead, they're dead regardless of how.
Posted on 5/5/20 at 4:12 pm to Bud Davis
quote:
I was kind of with you for a second in terms of you stating what the entire intent of your post was until this. I think I can attest to the reality of what’s happening. What is their motivation if not monetary? It’s not a conspiracy theory. At least I know for a fact they they intentionally mislabeled COD.
Yeah, I had a change of heart and edited it away because yeah it was rash to say that, but you caught it too soon.
But it is a conspiracy theory. I get tired of these grand ideas of insipid schemes and plans to scam at every single level of every single thing here. People feast off that stuff and love it, but there's just not good evidence that it's actually happening. "It feels right because the hospitals would profit off of it, so why wouldn't they!" just doesn't cut it. The graph in this post is the exact kind of "evidence" people are using to support hospitals fraudulently marking Covid deaths when they shouldn't, not realizing that hospitals have strict standards about this stuff and a whole line of people in charge of interpreting and disseminating that information that are all in positions to speak out about it or reverse it.
This also assumes that every single hospital is coordinated in it together to scam this one up, and not a single person has come forward as a whistleblower, not a single nurse or tech with a conscience to get a big payday from Fox or Brietbart or whatever to expose the big hoax.
There is no strong evidence that I've seen that PROVES Covid deaths are being intentionally inflated. Every viral "gotcha" that has gone around has been just like this pneumonia graph, intentional misinformation, or anecdotal. YES, Covid deaths are being overcounted when another disease was the real cause because it can't be done perfectly. But YES, Covid deaths are also being undercounted because people die at home or die before getting tested. We won't know until the end how much Covid has had an impact on everything. But the data is already there to show, and I've already covered this higher in the thread, that even if every. single. flu and pneumonia death was erased from the records and called Covid deaths by sneaky hospitals, Covid deaths would still be very high. And you can't make up deaths. If this is really something happening on a huge scale all over the country, it is going to be obvious by the numbers when everything is over.
A lot of the government conspiracy theories work like that too. Which one is it? The government is useless, or the government can organize these huge involved schemes without anyone ever finding out about it?
This post was edited on 5/5/20 at 4:12 pm
Posted on 5/5/20 at 4:15 pm to David_DJS
quote:
Micro, do you believe that there is a large, vocal and pretty powerful contingent of Dems that are politically motivated to inflate COVID numbers? I'm not asking if you think they're doing it. And I'm not suggesting they're hoping for more dead people - once a person is dead, they're dead regardless of how.
Yes, absolutely. There is a political benefit to be gained by pumping up the virus as a failure of Donald Trump, and that is a conflict of interest. This is propagated through the media and is a big reason we shut down the entire country at once when we probably should not have.
Like you said, they can't invent dead people out of thin air. After this is over, it will be obvious if there was extreme widespread fabrication of Covid deaths.
But I do NOT think the raw data is being manipulated at a large scale at the point of healthcare. The Democrats can scheme and bloviate and fearmonger just fine with the actual numbers. I would like to know how people think the Democrats organize enough to have every hospital around the country fake their numbers and nobody finds out about it. It's just preposterous. This is why I call it a conspiracy.
It's not a conspiracy theory that Dems are using this whole situation to their advantage. It's a conspiracy theory to say hospitals are faking the numbers for their benefit too. This is leading to anti-physician sentiment too and distrust of doctors and I don't like it at all.
This post was edited on 5/5/20 at 4:19 pm
Posted on 5/5/20 at 4:18 pm to Microtiger
quote:We never shut the country down at once, it's why Dems were shitting on Kristi Noem.
is a big reason we shut down the entire country at once when we probably should not have.
Posted on 5/5/20 at 4:19 pm to Jbird
quote:
We never shut the country down at once, it's why Dems were shitting on Kristi Noem.
You know what I mean. Yeah, it was state by state, but it was done without any granularity. Large areas locked down in response to small areas infected. All areas eventually locked down even if they're Maine with hardly any cases. Not literally at once.
This post was edited on 5/5/20 at 4:21 pm
Posted on 5/5/20 at 4:22 pm to Microtiger
quote:Meh, the hit on Trump was he didn't do it.
You know what I mean. Yeah, it was state by state, but it was done without any granularity. Large areas locked down in response to small areas infected. All areas eventually locked down even if they're Maine with hardly any cases. Not literally at once.
Posted on 5/5/20 at 4:32 pm to Jbird
quote:
Meh, the hit on Trump was he didn't do it.
Yeah, you're right. I guess a large shutdown right around when Trump did it followed by careful metered reopening makes the most sense. Thankfully that's kind of what we're doing.
I have not really been very critical of Trump's actions towards the virus vis a vis timing of the shutdown and a want for some places to open again. I don't love some of the things he's said or insinuated about it, but whatever.
This post was edited on 5/5/20 at 4:34 pm
Posted on 5/5/20 at 4:35 pm to Microtiger
quote:I agree with him that China and the WHO need to pay.
I don't love some of the things he's said or insinuated about it, but whatever.
Posted on 5/5/20 at 5:15 pm to Microtiger
Yup whatever you say
Posted on 5/5/20 at 7:50 pm to Microtiger
quote:
But I do NOT think the raw data is being manipulated at a large scale at the point of healthcare. The Democrats can scheme and bloviate and fearmonger just fine with the actual numbers. I would like to know how people think the Democrats organize enough to have every hospital around the country fake their numbers and nobody finds out about it. It's just preposterous. This is why I call it a conspiracy.
An essential element of a conspiracy is its planning is done in secrecy and its "perpetrators" are not readily apparent. So when government agencies and healthcare administrators publish guidelines that in effect will result in a contrived overcounting of COVID deaths, it's really not a conspiracy.
quote:
have every hospital around the country fake their numbers and nobody finds out about it. It's just preposterous.
But it's been verified that this is exactly what is happening - am I wrong about that? I thought there are verified reports of hospitals/healthcare systems instructing staff to (to different degrees) assume COVID in any case where COVID was present.
I'm not surprised by the notion that hospitals and doctors operate with the profit motive at heart. I'm not sure why you are.
Let me ask this - how many people do you think died over the last 8 weeks with COVID in their body that was given a cause of death that did not include COVID?
Posted on 5/6/20 at 11:18 am to Microtiger
quote:
What numbers? What in the world are you talking about?
Your chart, that you said to stop posting
Forget about the current weeks, go back to the very first week of the chart. Which year has the lowest number of pneumonia deaths that week? How about the 2nd week? Third Week? Why is the answer always 2019?
Is it because they have been under counting pneumonia, and shifting some deaths to a different column, on purpose?
Posted on 5/6/20 at 11:55 am to RobbBobb
Short answer - keep going back further than the beginning of the red line (which already goes back to September 2019) into 2018-2019, and notice that the low trend for pneumonia started way before Covid.
Now this is a logical line of reasoning that actually follows from reading the graph correctly, and I can respect it. Yes, this year has been the lowest, but look at the week numbers on the bottom of the chart. They don't start at week 1, but midway through the previous year. The red line at the bottom is low going all the way back to 2019 week 40 - that's in September, when the virus wasn't here yet. I know there has been evidence it's been here longer than we thought, but the most extreme of those push it to October, and it could not have been a big enough "thing" by then to impact pneumonia deaths THAT much.
And look at the green line, which is the year before - it's also really low for the last few months, which carried over into the next year. And look at the middle hump for 2018-2019 - it's also really low. This supports #1, that it's just a low year for pneumonia.
Again, I do think that inevitably pneumonia deaths are being counted as Covid if the patient had Covid, even if they would have died from the pneumonia without Covid. As I explained a few posts up, even if you subtracted EVERY SINGLE usual number of flu and pneumonia deaths from the Covid deaths, it's still a lot of deaths. And that would require us to have 0 flu and 0 pneumonia deaths (we don't).
No. Stop jumping to this conclusion. This is where it becomes a conspiracy theory. See my other posts above.
quote:
Forget about the current weeks, go back to the very first week of the chart. Which year has the lowest number of pneumonia deaths that week? How about the 2nd week? Third Week? Why is the answer always 2019? Is it because they have been under counting pneumonia
Now this is a logical line of reasoning that actually follows from reading the graph correctly, and I can respect it. Yes, this year has been the lowest, but look at the week numbers on the bottom of the chart. They don't start at week 1, but midway through the previous year. The red line at the bottom is low going all the way back to 2019 week 40 - that's in September, when the virus wasn't here yet. I know there has been evidence it's been here longer than we thought, but the most extreme of those push it to October, and it could not have been a big enough "thing" by then to impact pneumonia deaths THAT much.
And look at the green line, which is the year before - it's also really low for the last few months, which carried over into the next year. And look at the middle hump for 2018-2019 - it's also really low. This supports #1, that it's just a low year for pneumonia.
quote:
Is it because they have been under counting pneumonia
Again, I do think that inevitably pneumonia deaths are being counted as Covid if the patient had Covid, even if they would have died from the pneumonia without Covid. As I explained a few posts up, even if you subtracted EVERY SINGLE usual number of flu and pneumonia deaths from the Covid deaths, it's still a lot of deaths. And that would require us to have 0 flu and 0 pneumonia deaths (we don't).
quote:
and shifting some deaths to a different column, on purpose?
No. Stop jumping to this conclusion. This is where it becomes a conspiracy theory. See my other posts above.
This post was edited on 5/6/20 at 12:06 pm
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