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re: South Africa spin off thread: the legacy of Rhodesia.

Posted on 2/28/18 at 6:41 pm to
Posted by crazy4lsu
Member since May 2005
39820 posts
Posted on 2/28/18 at 6:41 pm to
quote:

One wonders what rhodesia would like today if Ian Smith’s descendants and his (racist) party still held power.



Well the boom in the Rhodesian economy was mitigated by economic sanctions, and GDP growth effectively flatlined after the 1975 sanctions were put in place. Zambia, which was once Northern Rhodesia, had similar GDP numbers until the price of its chief export, copper, declined in the 1970's, and government borrowing increased. After the new government was installed in Zimbabwe, the GDP increased from 5.1 billion to 8.5 billion in 1982, and saw growth of 11 percent through the 80's, especially after 1985.

Zambia, under a one party state from 1972 to 1991, struggled with high foreign debt, an inability to export copper, and struggling state industries until 2000, when Frederick Chiluba introduced market reforms, which increased the GDP from 4 billion in 2000 to 20 billion now. Zambia also did not have the advantages that Rhodesia did in terms of its manufacturing sector, which had more development from the colonial era. Zambia received much more investment in mining during the colonial era, and had little in the way of any other industries.

The similar population demographics between Zambia and Zimbabwe make for an interesting comparison. Since reforms made in the Zambian economy, and the sale of key nationalized assets, the Zambia economy has grown while the Zimbabwean economy has contracted, and Zambia has been relatively peaceful since its founding. I think that Zimbabwe would look similar to Zambia now if the Rhodesian front had remained in power, absent of sanctions. The political turmoil of post-2000 Zimbabwe is a major cause of their issues, and the relative peacefulness of Zambia in relation gives a good guide to how a country with similar history and demographics would be now.
Posted by HailHailtoMichigan!
Mission Viejo, CA
Member since Mar 2012
74188 posts
Posted on 2/28/18 at 7:12 pm to
Why are you so smart and educated about everything???
Posted by crazy4lsu
Member since May 2005
39820 posts
Posted on 2/28/18 at 7:57 pm to
Are you being sarcastic? I honestly can't tell.
This post was edited on 2/28/18 at 7:57 pm
Posted by HailHailtoMichigan!
Mission Viejo, CA
Member since Mar 2012
74188 posts
Posted on 2/28/18 at 8:01 pm to
You seem so educated on so many topics, especially foreign stuff

No sarcasm at all.
Posted by RoyalAir
Detroit
Member since Dec 2012
7496 posts
Posted on 2/28/18 at 8:16 pm to
quote:

They could not vote or hold high public offices. That alone is worth rich derision 


I'm 95% certain that this isn't true. Smith didn't believe in universal suffrage, no, because he didn't think the vast majority of the country was capable of responsible exercise. He was correct.

But blacks were eligible to vote and hold office- provided certain tests and metrics were met, such as literacy, tax payment, land ownership, etc. There's a YouTube video of Smith explaining this system to the BBC World Service, IIRC.

That Rhodesia didn't follow strict apartheid, along with the British heritage of the government, were a source of contention between Zuid Afrika and the Rhodesians. They were much looser allies than you'd think. As many ethnic/tribal conflicts as the black Africans had, the white Africans nearly matched them.

If you want to be nostalgic for a time and place in which you didn't live, search for videos of Salisbury. It's fascinating.
Posted by crazy4lsu
Member since May 2005
39820 posts
Posted on 2/28/18 at 8:21 pm to
I just read a lot. I mostly comment on topics relevant to my interests, among which post-colonial history is one.
Posted by HailHailtoMichigan!
Mission Viejo, CA
Member since Mar 2012
74188 posts
Posted on 2/28/18 at 8:52 pm to
You must have quite a book stack at your house
Posted by crazy4lsu
Member since May 2005
39820 posts
Posted on 2/28/18 at 9:04 pm to
About 1200 books between my home here and my dad's house. I've moved to PDF's of lots of them because I keep losing books and then rebuying them.
Posted by MrCarton
Paradise Valley, MT
Member since Dec 2009
20231 posts
Posted on 2/28/18 at 9:04 pm to
quote:

The country was truly the breadbasket of Africa, and the high productivity allowed to a generous social welfare system including healthcare and education that even blacks were entitled to.

One wonders what rhodesia would like today if Ian Smith’s descendants and his (racist) party still held power.

Political rights are worth more in long run than economic comfort, but I think Mugabe went way too far in testing down the economic structure that white settlers built there


So we are supposed to believe it's better to have a failing, violent criminal state that's ostensibly "not racist" than a successful, violent criminal state that is "racists"?

Posted by AbuTheMonkey
Chicago, IL
Member since May 2014
8645 posts
Posted on 2/28/18 at 9:12 pm to
Yea that was one thing I was going to mention: Zimbabwe didn’t get bad until after 2000 thanks largely to Mugabe’s misadventures in the Congo.
Posted by HailHailtoMichigan!
Mission Viejo, CA
Member since Mar 2012
74188 posts
Posted on 2/28/18 at 9:57 pm to
salisbury, rhodesia





Posted by bamafan1001
Member since Jun 2011
15783 posts
Posted on 2/28/18 at 10:11 pm to
quote:

Political rights are worth more in long run than economic comfort, but I think Mugabe went way too far in testing down the economic structure that white settlers built there




That depends. The blacks always had political rights...because they outnumbered whites and could kick them out at any time...which they eventually did. At some point they(probably fewer than youd think) decided it was worth risking the gravy train to take over. Looks like it was a bad bet
Posted by HailHailtoMichigan!
Mission Viejo, CA
Member since Mar 2012
74188 posts
Posted on 2/28/18 at 11:05 pm to
This thread got me wondering: have any of you met a rhodesian immigrant before?

Something like 250,000 whites left the country between 1980 and present day.

I am sure some came here to America.
Posted by memester
Member since Apr 2009
28 posts
Posted on 3/1/18 at 12:57 am to
quote:

This thread got me wondering: have any of you met a rhodesian immigrant before?


A friend of mine was born in South Africa to Rhodesian parents. They saw the writing on the wall and moved to Vancouver in the early '80s when she was a toddler. Lovely, hard-working people.
Posted by Beachtiger
Bomba Shack
Member since Apr 2007
4207 posts
Posted on 3/1/18 at 5:19 am to
quote:

thread got me wondering: have any of you met a rhodesian immigrant before? 


Co worker, he has interesting stories and opinions.
Posted by RoyalAir
Detroit
Member since Dec 2012
7496 posts
Posted on 3/1/18 at 7:43 am to
quote:

This thread got me wondering: have any of you met a rhodesian immigrant before? 


A lot of them moved to ZA, such as Ian Smith and his family. Others moved to Kenya and Botswana. Few made it to the US, as there was animosity with how the Carter administration (and notably Andrew Young) hung them out to dry.

I'd heard an Australian call the Rhodesian expats WhenWes, because every other sentence started with "When we were in Rhodesia..."
This post was edited on 3/1/18 at 7:52 am
Posted by Parmen
Member since Apr 2016
18317 posts
Posted on 3/1/18 at 7:44 am to
Africa became a shite hole once they ran the Europeans out.
Posted by 9th life
birmingham
Member since Sep 2009
7310 posts
Posted on 3/1/18 at 7:55 am to
quote:

t I think Mugabe went way too far in testing down the economic structure that white settlers built there


His soldiers executed my ex-girlfriend's grandparents for their farmland. That's a little too far for me.
Posted by cokebottleag
I’m a Santos Republican
Member since Aug 2011
24080 posts
Posted on 3/1/18 at 8:08 am to
Democracy is the God that failed.
Posted by FightinTigersDammit
Louisiana North
Member since Mar 2006
46425 posts
Posted on 3/1/18 at 8:09 am to
I remember hearing a Rhodesian doing talk radio back in the 90s/early 2000's. His first name was Robby, can't remember the last name.

ETA Robby Noel
This post was edited on 3/1/18 at 8:11 am
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