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Message
re: Science Increasingly Makes the Case for God--WSJ--Eric Metaxas
Posted on 1/1/15 at 6:00 pm to NC_Tigah
Posted on 1/1/15 at 6:00 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
Well that's a scoch over-broad.
I'm not sure how. I can't think of anything more terrible than genuinely devoting one's entire life to false idea.
Now, this isn't an issue for most western Christians. Most are either cultural Christians just going through the motions, or genuine believers only willing to take their religious actions as far as the social norms allow. For the minority who genuinely, truly follow Jesus in the way in which the New Testament commands it would be a terrible waste if it were all for a lie.
The only peace one can take from such stories is that, if they are wrong, they'll never know it. I actually know more than a few people who say that, even if it weren't true, their lives are better with belief than without. I suppose that for some the comfort it provides more than makes up for the sacrifice it requires even on the chance they could be wrong.
2
Posted on 1/1/15 at 6:05 pm to ctiger69
quote:
I could probay list 1000 pieces of evidence to support God.
I'm sure you could present 1000 things that you THINK support god, but that really isn't the issue. Given the number of Gods proposed in human history, you should be expected to gives us an extensive list of objective evidence for the God of the Bible.
The interesting thing about Christian apologetics is that in all of the traditional arguments is there rarely any "evidence" given unique to Christianity. One could just as easily use 90% of the arguments put forth by the likes of William Lane Craig to prove Islam or Hinduism or Zoroastrianism.
quote:
I ask an atheist to show me 1 piece of evidence that there is no God.
There isn't any evidence against the inherent idea of God because it is an untestable claim. God, if he exists, does so outside of the physical universe and thus cannot be "disproven".
There is however extensive evidence against the idea of God presented by the Bible (or the Quran, the Vedas, etc.) because it makes claims about the physical world and our immediate reality which MUST be true in order for that version of God to exist. The interesting thing here is that Christians have no problem accepting this evidence when discussing other religions, but apply a different set of criteria for their own belief.
This post was edited on 1/1/15 at 6:10 pm
Posted on 1/1/15 at 6:06 pm to Roger Klarvin
quote:
For the minority who genuinely, truly follow Jesus in the way in which the New Testament commands it would be a terrible waste if it were all for a lie.
So a person who would pattern his life after Jesus' and help the poor, widows and orphans. Do good deeds to those who hated him and tried to put others needs ahead of his own would be considered a waste in your eyes? You are mighty shortsighted.
Posted on 1/1/15 at 6:06 pm to ctiger69
quote:
I could probay list 1000 pieces of evidence to support God. You would then try your best to say everyone of them is wrong.
so you got nothing.
It's okay to admit it.
You cannot link one single scrap of evidence so you cop out and deflect.
Spoken like a true lemming.
Posted on 1/1/15 at 6:09 pm to Revelator
quote:
So a person who would pattern his life after Jesus' and help the poor, widows and orphans. Do good deeds to those who hated him and tried to put others needs ahead of his own would be considered a waste in your eyes?
A person who is doing all this shite in hopes he can get into heaven because he is afraid that his wrathful god will set him on fire forever...
...yeah that's something...not sure what it is but it's hardly out of his own good heart.
Posted on 1/1/15 at 6:11 pm to Roger Klarvin
quote:
For questioning my beliefs, and noticing when others question theirs?
Roger I am not questioning your beliefs by what I am about to say, I am just trying to understand...
You seem a bit bitter beyond what might be a usual level towards your former belief system. If the afore-mentioned is true(that you are a gay atheist, which I apologize for not knowing your post history enough), do you think there might be an element of negative over-compensation now towards religion because you were raised in an environment that went strongly against some core things prevalent in your life such as the homosexuality?
Posted on 1/1/15 at 6:15 pm to asurob1
quote:
Spoken like a true lemming.
Dude, read your signature before you point fingers...
Posted on 1/1/15 at 6:16 pm to asurob1
I think the point of the article is as we know more about the complexity of the universe and the forces involved it is harder to make the case of some spontaneous, random event occurred to form the universe. We are finding things much more complex than we once thought---in his example much more complex than Sagan thought.
When I consider the probabilities the author mentions I cannot discount that a super intelligence, a God, exists.
How could anyone??
So back to the political point---if you insist on painting a group of people as science deniers while more and more scientists are saying this is much more complex than we thought are you losing credibility?
I ask again just what is a bigger reach---that this multitude of millions and millions of statistically impossible things happened as a result of spontaneous, random events or is there a chance of an unknown super intelligence--a God?
When I consider the probabilities the author mentions I cannot discount that a super intelligence, a God, exists.
How could anyone??
So back to the political point---if you insist on painting a group of people as science deniers while more and more scientists are saying this is much more complex than we thought are you losing credibility?
I ask again just what is a bigger reach---that this multitude of millions and millions of statistically impossible things happened as a result of spontaneous, random events or is there a chance of an unknown super intelligence--a God?
Posted on 1/1/15 at 6:17 pm to Crimson1st
quote:
Dude, read your signature before you point fingers...
ctiger said he 1000s of examples of evidence of god's existence.
still waiting.
Posted on 1/1/15 at 6:18 pm to Revelator
quote:
So a person who would pattern his life after Jesus' and help the poor, widows and orphans. Do good deeds to those who hated him and tried to put others needs ahead of his own would be considered a waste in your eyes?
I never said that their efforts would be a waste, or that they themselves wouldn't be beneficial to society. I said on a personal level it would be a waste to go through life believing existence was something it was not.
For instance, to go through life believing that most who have ever lived (including friends and members of your own family) will suffer for eternity in Hell is a pretty heavy burden. If that were not true, but one believed it anyway, it would be a lifetime of personal pain that could have been avoided. Again, this only applies to those who genuinely believe in hell and thought long and hard about it's ramifications. Most Christians are very "meh" about Hell.
Another example is church. How many hours do the devout spend in church and what percentage of their tithes go to funding the salaries of religious leaders and facilities? That time and money would be better spent elsewhere if going to church is actually meaningless.
What about the nearly endless list of legislation based at least in part in the principles of religion and the actions of the religious? What if gay marriage is actually morally neutral? What if the only result of teaching creationism in schools is misled youth? What if liquor stores were actually open on Sunday everywhere and abstinence only education was largely done away with?
The list goes on and on.
Posted on 1/1/15 at 6:20 pm to I B Freeman
quote:
I think the point of the article is as we know more about the complexity of the universe and the forces involved it is harder to make the case of some spontaneous, random event occurred to form the universe. We are finding things much more complex than we once thought---in his example much more complex than Sagan thought.
When I consider the probabilities the author mentions I cannot discount that a super intelligence, a God, exists.
How could anyone??
So back to the political point---if you insist on painting a group of people as science deniers while more and more scientists are saying this is much more complex than we thought are you losing credibility?
I ask again just what is a bigger reach---that this multitude of millions and millions of statistically impossible things happened as a result of spontaneous, random events or is there a chance of an unknown super intelligence--a God?
Why is this so hard to discuss? How did the thread turn into a Christian/non Christian discussion?
Posted on 1/1/15 at 6:23 pm to asurob1
quote:
A person who is doing all this shite in hopes he can get into heaven because he is afraid that his wrathful god will set him on fire forever... ...yeah that's something...not sure what it is but it's hardly out of his own good heart.
If your characterization of Christianity was analogized in a medical context, you speak as if you are a surgeon but appear to have the knowledge and understanding on the profession of one that only graduated elementary school.
This post was edited on 1/1/15 at 6:25 pm
Posted on 1/1/15 at 6:26 pm to I B Freeman
quote:
When I consider the probabilities the author mentions I cannot discount that a super intelligence, a God, exists.
How could anyone??
Sorry. No. People throughout time have created various god myths to explain the unexplainable. This is phenomenon is nothing new or particularly different...
That's the thing about science. It slowly but surely strips away the magic of the world and offers up hard won knowledge.
Refuting the existence of some intelligent guy who created us gets easier with each passing discovery about the world around us.
We have barely scratched the surface.
quote:
So back to the political point---if you insist on painting a group of people as science deniers while more and more scientists are saying this is much more complex than we thought are you losing credibility?
I don't paint them that way. They do that all by themselves. I am just happy to pile on. I cannot tell you how many times we have heard evolution isn't real on this very forum. Yet we see evidence of it everywhere. shite like that, people being stupid because it refutes their belief in an all powerful deity (and for no other reason)...that makes them mighty stupid.
Hell when I was kid I had a pastor tell me that things like dinosaur bones were part of Satan's evil plot to lead me astray.
quote:
I ask again just what is a bigger reach---that this multitude of millions and millions of statistically impossible things happened as a result of spontaneous, random events or is there a chance of an unknown super intelligence--a God?
I have said multiple times Odin is the one true god.
Prove me wrong.
Posted on 1/1/15 at 6:27 pm to Crimson1st
quote:
You seem a bit bitter beyond what might be a usual level towards your former belief system.
Not at all, I have no anger when I think about my time as a Christian. I had very loving parents, many very fond memories of church and had a very happy childhood, adolescents and young adulthood as a Christian. The vast majority of my family and friends today are believers, and I don't begrudge any of them. I happily listen to them when they try and persuade me to come back, because I know they do it because they care.
I am not some angry internet atheist who ignorantly trashes those who believe.
Now, do I regret some of the beliefs I used to hold? Yes, but only because I see them as so easily refutable now. I regret that I went so long without even trying to question some of the beliefs I had. I don't regret them because they were inherently harmful, but them I also wasn't raised in a fundamentalist household. I can see how some do become enraged when thinking back to their life in religion.
quote:
If the afore-mentioned is true(that you are a gay atheist, which I apologize for not knowing your post history enough),
ctiger has a very odd infatuation with me simply because I politely corrected him on some misconceptions he had about HIV and now he makes a point to call me gay at every opportunity.
I'm a happily married heterosexual agnostic-atheist who doesn't believe in God but who is open to the idea of one existing if the evidence presents itself.
quote:
do you think there might be an element of negative over-compensation now towards religion because you were raised in an environment that went strongly against some core things prevalent in your life such as the homosexuality?
My life changed very little when I came out of religion. Hell I still go to church with family from time to time and don't have any problem with it. I just stopped believing, not by choice or force of will but because I simply stopped believing in the same way I stopped believing in Santa and monsters in my closet. I just cannot force myself to believe in Santa anymore.
Posted on 1/1/15 at 6:32 pm to asurob1
quote:
A person who is doing all this shite in hopes he can get into heaven because he is afraid that his wrathful god will set him on fire forever...
Why would the motivation matter whether it was to please a non existent God or because the guy was just a good citizen?
Posted on 1/1/15 at 6:34 pm to Revelator
Externally it wouldn't matter at all.
Posted on 1/1/15 at 6:35 pm to Revelator
quote:
Why would the motivation matter whether it was to please a non existent God or because the guy was just a good citizen?
really?
Posted on 1/1/15 at 6:37 pm to Roger Klarvin
quote:
I never said that their efforts would be a waste, or that they themselves wouldn't be beneficial to society. I said on a personal level it would be a waste to go through life believing existence was something it was not.
If things turn out as you believe and there is no afterlife and this person would just go to the ground with out any conscious awareness of anything, again, why would it matter that he did good deeds under a false belief system?
To me, a waste is living a life believing that this is all that there is. To know that there is no after life and no chance to once again see friends, parents, children etc. To know that this short 50,60, 70.. years is all one has and then nothing. To me, that's the definition of waste.
Posted on 1/1/15 at 6:41 pm to Roger Klarvin
Roger Klarvin I'd question your sincere belief in the first place. Likewise, your original belief in Santa Claus. True science don't lie
This post was edited on 1/1/15 at 6:47 pm
Posted on 1/1/15 at 6:43 pm to asurob1
quote:
really?
I've told you this before Rob and I'll say it again, a laughing emoticon isn't a response.
If you have problems with my post, let's have a rational discussion about what was said and not stoop to juvenile comics. If you can explain why his motivations to do good deeds is important as to why they are being done, please explain, with words.
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