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Started By
Message
re: Putin Orders Third Troop Expansion Of War, Making Army 2nd Largest After China's
Posted on 9/17/24 at 3:54 pm to GoAwayImBaitn
Posted on 9/17/24 at 3:54 pm to GoAwayImBaitn
quote:
Who broke the agreement
Which official agreement do you reference? Which governments were parties?
quote:
and expanded NATO more eastward, moving it onto Russia's doorstep?
Ukraine isn't part of NATO. Ukraine got invaded.
quote:
Who overthrew the Ukraine government and installed Zelensky?
Oh boy. You really don't know what you're talking about. quote:
Who put biolabs and CIA bases in Eastern Ukraine?
Biolabs are located in all corners of the globe, so I imagine, lots of people.
As for "CIA bases", how many can you document prior to Russia starting this whole mess in 2014?
0
Posted on 9/17/24 at 3:56 pm to OBReb6
quote:
4. (U) During a press briefing January 22 in response to a question about Ukraine's request for a MAP, the MFA said "a radical new expansion of NATO may bring about a serious political-military shift that will inevitably affect the security interests of Russia." The spokesman went on to stress that Russia was bound with Ukraine by bilateral obligations set forth in the 1997 Treaty on Friendship, Cooperation and Partnership in which both parties undertook to "refrain from participation in or support of any actions capable of prejudicing the security of the other Side." The spokesman noted that Ukraine's "likely integration into NATO would seriously complicate the many-sided Russian-Ukrainian relations," and that Russia would "have to take appropriate measures." The spokesman added that "one has the impression that the present Ukrainian leadership regards rapprochement with NATO largely as an alternative to good-neighborly ties with the Russian Federation."
Again, I ask the same question:
quote:
If you can explain what NATO had to do with the 2014 Russian interference with Ukraine's integration with the EU, which led to the Maidan revolution in response, I'll listen.
Nothing you posted had anything to do with the EU, only NATO.
Posted on 9/17/24 at 3:58 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
Ukraine never even applied to be part of NATO until this invasion.
How many times have we had leaders state they wanted Ukraine to join NATO?
For sure Bush did in 2008 (and his comments and Georgia’s chest beating afterwards are what led to the 2008 Russian invasion)
Zelenskyy said in 2021 publicly he didn’t know why Ukraine wasn’t in NATO and was going to ask Biden about it
I think I’m forgetting a couple
Posted on 9/17/24 at 3:59 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
By this logic, Russia can literally do anything it wants.
that is what has never made sense to me
their logic takes us down this road
Posted on 9/17/24 at 4:01 pm to OBReb6
quote:
How many times have we had leaders state they wanted Ukraine to join NATO?
Completely non-responsive to my comment.
Russia doesn't get to claim NATO in Ukraine was such a threat it justified invasion when no formal steps were ever taken for Ukraine to even apply to join NATO.
Posted on 9/17/24 at 4:07 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
If you can explain what NATO had to do with the 2014 Russian interference with Ukraine's integration with the EU, which led to the Maidan revolution in response, I'll listen.
Can you be more clear? Because there are a few steps missing. What are you considering to be the Russian interference in this context?
Posted on 9/17/24 at 4:08 pm to B2BWWchamps
quote:
that is what has never made sense to me
their logic takes us down this road
I have to imagine the sentiment would be a lot different if online memes/CTs didn't start during the Trump admin about Ukraine being a place for political grift to US pols/family (later updated with all sorts of stupidity, like the FTX insanity and "biol labs" as seen ITT)
In their mind, they don't need to understand what they're actually arguing, b/c Ukraine has been put in the out group, which means anything against Ukraine is justified. That and the generic anti-Americanism that's being spewed b/c their team isn't in office as President.
Posted on 9/17/24 at 4:14 pm to OBReb6
quote:
Can you be more clear?
Russia started this in 2014 by interfering with Ukraine via its puppet (Yanukovych), specifically to thwart integration by Ukraine with the EU
This led to the Maidan revolution, which led to the ousting of Yanukovych, which opened the door to the US possibly helping get its puppet elected as the replacement for the Russian puppet.
What does a plan to thwart EU integration have to do with NATO?
Russia did not thwart NATO integration by Ukraine.
quote:
What are you considering to be the Russian interference in this context?
Intentionally delaying EU integration and then, at the 11th hour, pulling a 180 and signing a pro-Russia economic agreement.
In 2013, 315 of the 349 MPs supported the Association Agreement with Ukraine and the EU. Yanukovich pulled the 180 in November of that year. Maidan was in full force by February, 2014.
This is literally what led to the organic civil uprising by the Ukrainian people known as the Maidan revolution.
Posted on 9/17/24 at 4:37 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
Russia started this in 2014 by interfering with Ukraine via its puppet (Yanukovych), specifically to thwart integration by Ukraine with the EU
This led to the Maidan revolution, which led to the ousting of Yanukovych, which opened the door to the US possibly helping get its puppet elected as the replacement for the Russian puppet.
What does a plan to thwart EU integration have to do with NATO?
Well, I know Russia’s foreign minister said they view EU integration as a Trojan horse for NATO expansion
I guess the real question is why did we keep pushing for something, or facilitating the “desire” of Ukraine to do so, when we knew full well what a hornets nest it was? Why would we and the EU risk something like this over Ukraine’s integration? It makes no sense except for strategic military reasons.
quote:
This is literally what led to the organic civil uprising by the Ukrainian
It might have started as organic to a degree, but it was kept going by the west
Posted on 9/17/24 at 4:42 pm to OBReb6
SFP has a terrible blind spot on this issue.
Posted on 9/17/24 at 7:07 pm to OBReb6
quote:what does that have to do with loving Russia and Putin and taking their part? I don't want to send money to Ukraine either, but that doesn't mean I have to gargle Putin's balls and repeat his ludicrous justifications for naked territorial aggression and expansion. This idea that all Putin ever wanted was a buffer between Russia and NATO is belied by him trying to invade and incorporate a country that borders NATO, thus putting his borders right next to NATO. Unfortunately for the Putin stans, Medvedev let the cat out of the bag that this is all really just over the mineral wealth in eastern Ukraine
Maybe he’s just tired of the dollar continuing to lose value, and our international security deteriorating
This post was edited on 9/17/24 at 7:14 pm
Posted on 9/17/24 at 7:09 pm to narddogg81
quote:
his idea that all Putin ever wanted was a buffer between Russia and NATO is belief by him trying to invade and incorporate a country that borders NATO, they putting his borders right next to NATO.
Russian Ukraine becomes the buffer, that's the point
This post was edited on 9/17/24 at 7:10 pm
Posted on 9/17/24 at 7:10 pm to Lima Whiskey
quote:it already was a buffer. It's a pretext for trying to grab land. By that buffer logic, Poland would be with it's rights to invade and seize Belarus, a Russia puppet state on its border that let's Russia station military assets there
Ukraine becomes the buffer, that's the point
This post was edited on 9/17/24 at 7:13 pm
Posted on 9/17/24 at 7:14 pm to narddogg81
quote:
it already was a buffer.
It was NATO satellite led by an anti Russian government
quote:
By that buffer logic, Poland would be with it's rights to invade and seize Belarus, a Russia puppet state on its border that let's Russia station military assets there
No
Belarus is the other half of the Union state. That would be a direct attack on Russia.
This post was edited on 9/17/24 at 7:16 pm
Posted on 9/17/24 at 7:15 pm to Lima Whiskey
quote:and before that it was a Russian satellite led by an anti NATO government. Why is that acceptable next to a nato county but not vice versa? Only Russia puppets are allowed on the border?
was NATO satellite led by a anti Russian government
Posted on 9/17/24 at 7:17 pm to narddogg81
quote:
Why is that acceptable next to a nato county but not vice versa? Only Russia puppets are allowed on the border?
Geography
DC is 4,881 miles away from Kiev.
Moscow is just 470 miles away.
This post was edited on 9/17/24 at 7:18 pm
Posted on 9/17/24 at 7:17 pm to Lima Whiskey
quote:so Belarus is effectively actually Russia? Sounds like we need a NATO controlled buffer state, probably should peel off Western Belarus just to be safe
Belarus is the other half of the Union state. That would be a direct attack on Russia.
Posted on 9/17/24 at 7:20 pm to Lima Whiskey
quote:Warsaw is only 500 miles
Geography
DC is 4,881 miles away from Kiev.
Moscow is 470 miles.
Posted on 9/17/24 at 7:21 pm to narddogg81
quote:
Sounds like we need a NATO controlled buffer state,
We’re losing a war in Ukraine right now
Posted on 9/17/24 at 7:23 pm to narddogg81
quote:
Warsaw is only 500 miles
They’re irrelevant, and they’ve been that way for centuries. The Russians became the dominant Slavic power and they receded into history.
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