re: Paging Aubie101 re: "Once saved always saved"

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If we are credited for losing our salvation, then we must be credited for gaining it

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Doesn't the act of Believing constitute an intentional personal act that we execute on our behalf to gain our Salvation? So we ARE credited with gaining our Salvation even under the Protestant doctrine, because we ourselves decide to accept Jesus as our personal Lord and Savior. We must be credited for gaining it, just as a person who knowingly decides NOT to believe will be credited as refusing Salvation.

So, you see, your quote here is quite inaccurate. You've disproved your own argument.

Just as we are responsible for gaining our Salvation, we are also responsible if we lose our Salvation if we die with Sins on our immortal Soul.

Eternal Security is madness! It proposes that a person can die with serious Sins on his Soul at death, and these Sins do not matter - he's going to Heaven anyway.

Madness. Unknown in Christian thought for almost 2,000 years after Christ walked the Earth.

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How can one rest or have any peace if you have to keep yourself saved? How do you ever know you're saved day to day or minute to minute?
So it must be as follows.
Q: Are you saved?
A: No idea

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It's not complicated. Do as Jesus said - go and Sin no more.

Of course, if you DO later Sin, make certain to Confess and Repent of your Sin, and resolve to Sin no more and to avoid occasions that might tempt you into Sin.

Do not die with Sin or Sins on your Soul.

This is a "process" of walking towards and with Christ on our pilgrimage to become Perfect as our Father in Heaven is Perfect. It's like a pilgrimage. We are walking towards Perfection.

When we get to Heaven, our pilgrimage is completed, and we are Perfect.

I just finished reading the posts on this thread. Wow. Hey guys- way to go… turning tigrb8’s sincere quest for the assurance of salvation into a dogmatic dogfight over doctrine. I’m sure the Father is impressed by your infighting. It’s like parents arguing in front of the children- it’s just not good for anyone.

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As someone who struggles with addiction I have issues reconciling my salvation in what sometimes feels like a constant state of disobedience.

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There are many scriptures that can offer us solace, and there are many scriptures that can cause us to question our own salvation. Why? Because, sometimes we need comfort- and sometimes we need fear. Our Father will use whatever means necessary draw us to Him, but He will not force Himself upon us. That is Love.

Can we lose our salvation? IMO, no. Can we freely and purposefully reject it? IMO, yes. Am I certain? Absolutely not. Who among us has read the names in The Book of Life? Right- none of us. Consider the parable of the Prodigal Son. Did he lose his salvation? No. Why? Because he came home. Could he have lost it? It just doesn’t say. It seems that he chose to leave, and then chose to return (to a loving Father who was waiting with open arms).

Revelation 3:5 (NASB95): 5 ‘He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

“He who overcomes”… There is a certain finality to that statement. As though it is an ongoing process, that will not be completed until the end. A war is comprised of many battles. “I will not erase his name from the book of life…”
Logically, it follows that if we do not overcome, then He will erase our names from the book of life. Perhaps this is why we are encouraged to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. But, make no mistake- there is absolutely nothing that we can add to the work that Christ did on the cross. We are not saved by works, but we work because we are saved by grace through faith. It is a labor of love.

John 14:15 (NASB95): If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
Now, what I think this means is that you will want to keep the commandments. Why?

Because Paul said
Romans 7:15–20 (NASB95): For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.
16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.
17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.
19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.
20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

(It is of the utmost importance to not allow this to become misinterpreted as justification for sin)


1 John 1:9 (NASB95): If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
And…
Lamentations 3:22–25 (NASB95): The Lord’s lovingkindnesses indeed never cease,
For His compassions never fail.
23 They are new every morning;
Great is Your faithfulness.
24 “The Lord is my portion,” says my soul,
“Therefore I have hope in Him.”
25 The Lord is good to those who wait for Him,
To the person who seeks Him.

So, my friend, continue to seek Him, and you will overcome. God’s Word assures us that His grace is sufficient.

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Prodigal Son

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I appreciate what you are saying in terms of letting this turn into a debate instead of responding to the OP's concerns. But this is a message board and he did ask a pretty controversial question.

I admit I was more concerned about defending the Catholic faith than responding to someone in need. I guess I need to go confess that now.

I hope he reads your post and finds some relief.

I'll repeat what I said above. We have hope n a loving and merciful God. Addiction is hard on anyone, but if you work with God and others to overcome your addiction one day you will find freedom. Could be tomorrow could be days before your death, but I have hope in God that those who cooperate with his grace and allow others to help can overcome an addiction.

I'll admit I will be diving back into the argument that this thread has turned into but I appreciate you trying to get us back to the OP's concerns

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That's why we protestants say Jesus did it all, it is finished. If any part is up to me, I have no hope. He didn't split the bill.

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The problem I have with this approach is that it takes away man's freedom.

Think again of the water analogy I gave. God gives us water to drink but we still have to drink it. If God forces it down or throats than we have no freedom. Free will is an essential part of my philosophy and theology, without it how can God be all good?

Sure it is finished on the cross but something key to Catholic Theology is that man cooperates in God's grace. He must freely accept it. This in no way takes away from God's power, sovereignty etc. Rather it respects our freedom.

Think again of another passage, 1 Timothy 2:4. "[God] who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth." IF God is all powerful and cannot fail, wouldn't this mean there is no hell? Instead the scriptures clearly speak to the reality of hell. So for God to will all to be saved, but some are not saved means we have freedom. It doesn't mean God's will fails, but it shows us that God's will allows for man's freedom.

This Dominican Priest does a good job of explaining what I'm trying to get at.

LINK

He uses the analogy of the sun or light. When the sun shines during the day it shines on everyone, but we can choose to close our eyes. As he says the fault isn't with God but with man.

Most folks who aren't Catholic won't watch that whole video. Could you outline the other main points in a post, please?

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Think again of another passage, 1 Timothy 2:4. "[God] who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth." IF God is all powerful and cannot fail, wouldn't this mean there is no hell? Instead the scriptures clearly speak to the reality of hell. So for God to will all to be saved, but some are not saved means we have freedom. It doesn't mean God's will fails, but it shows us that God's will allows for man's freedom.

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Matthew 23:37 is another good one. Jesus wanted them to be saved, Jerusalem was not willing, therefore they weren't.

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Most folks who aren't Catholic won't watch that whole video. Could you outline the main points in a post, please?

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I tried to in my previous post.

the whole sun shines on everyone but we can choose to close our eyes.

I linked it at the point I want them to watch it. I'm not referencing the entire video. If the link doesn't start at a specific point watch at 5:55. Watch for about 2 minuets.

We are hopeless without God. No room for boasting.

John 6:44

No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.