re: Odd goings on at the Jerusalem Temple AD30 to AD70.

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This is all well and good, except for one thing, Foo - what the Bible says.

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I don't have a problem with what the Bible says, but how you (or Rome, in particular) interpret it.

Revelation isn't a great book to use as the definitive source for dogma. It's an apocryphal book with a lot of symbolism, that most Christians don't fully understand or even know how to properly interpret. That isn't to say we can't use Revelation as a source for our understanding, but that Revelation should be a help for other, more clear passages, versus the primary book we develop doctrine from, especially if it seems to contradict other more clear passages.

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The Bible says that Jesus Christ, in His Glorified Body, stands in Heaven, still bearing the wounds of His Sacrifice. They have not healed. They are, to use your word: "ongoing."

Just as if when you were a 6 year old child, you broke your arm. And then at age 35 you are an adult man, but your broken arm never healed. It's still broken and your suffering from the broken arm is ongoing.

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I think you missed my point in my response. In your analogy, a broken arm that is not properly healed may remain "broken" in some sense, but that's not what we're talking about in terms of a comparison to what Jesus did on the cross. An adult with an arm that was broken as a child that hasn't fully healed does not say that their arm is breaking, but that it was broken in time, and still has the effects of that one-time break.

With Christ, His sacrifice was one time, not continual.

The analogy also breaks down, because, as I pointed out previously, Jesus is no longer on the cross. He's no longer receiving the wrath of God on Him for our sins. He's no longer in the grave. He's no longer crying out, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?"

Jesus is alive. His body is glorified. He is in Heaven. He is ruling and reigning at the right hand of the Father. He no longer thirsts or hungers. As Jesus, Himself, said, "it is finished".

The punishment that Christ took for sinners is complete and over with. He no longer continues to suffer for sin.

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I found this on the internet and I like the way that this gentleman adds some thoughts to the conversation.

" CHRIST, THE LAMB SLAIN, STANDING
In Revelation 5:6, we get a glimpse into the vision that the apostle John sees at the throne of God. John sees a Lamb STANDING, as if slain, with seven horns and seven eyes.

THE SEVEN HORNS AND EYES
The horn in Scripture is a symbol for strength and authority. The number seven is God’s perfect number for the work of God.
The seven eyes are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth. This takes us back to Genesis 1 when the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters, forming it and filling it, bringing forth life. This is a reference to the perfect life giving work of the Holy Spirit in all the earth.

BUT WHY IS THE LAMB STANDING AS IF SLAIN?
Jesus is the Lamb of God that was slain. In this vision, He is standing in the midst of the throne. The Greek word for standing here is “hestekos”, which means ‘standing’, but not in the physically upright position, but “standing” as in continually everlasting, and it draws on the Jewish temple service of the priests in the daily, continual offerings of animal sacrifices for sin.

The priests were not allowed to sit down because sin never stopped, so their work never ended.

However, Christ’s sacrifice is a continual, standing, everlasting, once for all sacrifice, as THE LAMB slain!

The Jewish priests were continually standing, literally, but Jesus Christ is the everlasting High Priest, whose own blood shed as the true Lamb of God that was slain, stands forever. HIS sacrifice took away the sin of the world (John 1:29).

Jesus the Lamb and His sacrifice stands forever with seven horns, with all strength and authority over the whole earth, as His Spirit gives life!
Let’s give praise and thanks for the sacrifice of the Lamb of God, who took away the sin of the world forever! Amen! "

The Bible says that Jesus Christ is standing in Heaven, bearing the wounds of His Sacrifice right now. Let the people read, study, pray and decide for themselves what that means for their lives.

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You are making an entire theology out of essentially one verse in Revelation, and it doesn't even say Jesus continually bears His wounds and is suffering. In that part of the vision, John sees Christ represented as a lamb slain (past tense) and receiving glory for the salvation of His people.

The first chapter actually sets the stage, where Jesus says that He died (past tense) and is now alive forevermore, with the keys to death and hades, showing His current power over death.

Chapter 5 is not expressing what Christ is doing, but describing Him as to why He is worthy of worship and praise.

Chapter 6 and so on then shows how Christ is living and active, opening scrolls, and sitting in judgement, even expressing wrath towards the wicked.

Chapter 7 shows Christ the lamb as a living shepherd.

Chapters 11-14 show Christ the lamb as standing victorious over His enemies.

The final chapters show Christ ruling and reigning, not merely appearing dead and wounded.


So what we have here is a verse in one chapter giving an image of Christ's death as a description of what He took on to save sinners. The rest of the book shows Him living, ruling, reigning, and judging, not dead and wounded forever.

As I said, you are making an entire theology out of an unclear verse and ignoring the rest of Scripture. That only proves to me that you do not seek to get your theology from the Bible, but from men, who use the Bible to justify their man-made doctrines.

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I have nothing further to say on the topic OTHER THAN as a side issue, I sure wish we could know more about our Glorified Bodies that we will have when Christ raises us on the Last Day. I think it's going to be the same as Jesus's Glorified Body, but, like I said, I'm not sure.

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I, too, would like to know more about what our glorified state will be like. I don't think we'll be omnipresent, though, because of the limitations of the human nature

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Book of Revelation just a book of symbols that don't have relevance in making Real Christian Doctrine

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Champagne, I’m replying to this since it is an interesting topic. It is in the same genre and contains shared theology with the 1 Enoch (book of the watchers, book of parables, animal apocalypse, apocalypse of weeks) and the Ascension of Isaiah. It heavily shares theology with Paul’s legitimate 7 letters, plus Ephesians and Colossians, Hebrews, Jude, James, and 1 Peter. All those books I mentioned (except 1 Enoch) calls out Jesus by that name, but never ever once mentions Jesus’ ministry, Galilee, healing the blind and deaf, casting out demons, eating/walking/talking with Jesus, Roman soldiers, Pontius Pilate, Mary, virgin birth (or any birth at all), Jesus riding on a donkey, Jesus’ miracles, Jesus’ parables, or Jesus’ moral teachings. Revelation is a lot of symbols but like the rest of the books I mentioned, its symbols because its visions of the celestial Jesus who was never on earth. In those books I mentioned, not a single one ever says Jesus is “coming back” or “returning”… it’s only that Jesus is “coming”. I’m not sure if that bothers you or not, but as a Catholic I was wondering what you thought about that.

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In closing, referring to our Glorified Body state

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I have tried to explain to Foo that Paul wrote that he believed flesh was sinful, and that Christians have corruptible perishable sinful flesh, and buried as that, but will be raised as incorruptible imperishable spirit bodies just as Jesus was (in heaven). It’s in 1 Cor 15:44 for instance. Foo rejects that and says Christians will be resurrected as flesh, not as spiritual bodies - maybe because the gospels conflict with Paul, because of Luke and John’s gospels having Jesus resurrected with flesh and bones and wounds that would have had Paul rolling in his grave. What’s your take?

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I wonder whether that Lamb standing crucified and slain in Heaven

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This parallels Paul writing that Jesus was crucified by the archons in heaven, and the writer of Hebrews writing that Jesus was sacrificed in heaven (in the heavenly temple not made by human hands), plus the ascension of Isaiah where Jesus is crucified in heaven by Samael (the god of this world). Paul also talks of that same god of this world but doesn’t use the name Samael. That’s 3 canonical books mentioning Jesus slain in heaven, plus one apocryphal book also with Jesus slain in heaven. Is that not a problem for you?

I’m trying to understand the thought processes from an educated Catholic. Thanks

ETA: I was asking a couple of questions “fellow” churchgoing Catholics the other day about what they think happens when a loved one dies - of course “they’ll go to heaven” was the answer. I said think about the last two lines of the Nicene Creed and asked them to recite it and they were pretty much clueless. I’m aware of the Catechism, but I was wondering what you thought of that, and if you had every given any thought to maybe there was two opposing Christian schools of thought - one where the dead go to heaven to be with Christ, and one where the dead will be resurrected, judged (with the evil ones destroyed) and the good ones living in new spiritual bodies on a newly remade earth instead of in heaven. Thanks

New covenants and actual forgiveness rather than coverings don’t need animal sacrifices.

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Thanks, Foo. Good talk. I do respect your views and analysis, but, of course, I must remind myself that for over Fifteen Centuries of Christianity, the Church agreed with my view, and not yours. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying you're view is "new".

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The Roman Catholic view of the re-presentation of Christ's sacrifice was a development over hundreds of years, and wasn't present in its current understanding for "fifteen centuries of Christianity", as you (and Rome) claim.

And this is the difference between us laid out plainly yet again: you take the word of the church over the word of the Bible, because if the Bible seems to clearly teach a once-for-all sacrifice and the RCC teaches a perpetual sacrifice, you trust in the church.

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I'm also a bit surprised that you would call the Book of Revelation just a book of symbols that don't have relevance in making Real Christian Doctrine. I thought we agreed that all books of the New Testament are God-Breathed. I don't think God would waste His Breath on a Book of Revelation if it weren't very important.

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I didn't say Revelation was just a book of symbols, but I did clarify that the way to interpret the Bible is to use those verses and passages that are more clear to help us understand the ones that are less clear. Revelation is not intended to be taken strictly literal just due to the type of writing it is.

I believe you as a Roman Catholic and I as a Reformed Protestant would both disagree with the 200-year-old eschatological view of premil dispensationalism that is so pervasive in evangelical Christianity today, and that view tends to take the book of Revelation as a literal unfolding of what will happen in the future. I don't agree with that, because there is a lot of symbolism in that book. It's because of that that I would say we shouldn't look to that book by itself (over and against other books) to develop doctrines and dogmas that the faithful must believe.

Again I say, if the book of Hebrews is more clear than the book of Revelation on this issue, and I believe it is, we shouldn't discard Hebrews in favor of one verse in Revelation, but should interpret that verse in Revelation in light of many clearer verses in Hebrews and elsewhere. In saying this, I'm not downplaying that Revelation is also God's word, only that God has spoken very clearly elsewhere on subjects like the nature of Christ's sacrifice, and we shouldn't ignore those words.

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In closing, referring to our Glorified Body state, I suppose that God Himself might allow us to "see" things of the past, if that would suit his Will. Of course, I don't say that God would let us see FUTURE things in that state, because, once we are raised to our Glorfied Bodies on the Last Day, there will be no "future" any longer. There will only be the Eternal State of God's Eternal Presence. And you know? I wonder whether that Lamb standing crucified and slain in Heaven might then be allowed to come down from that Cross?

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Christ is already down from the cross. Even the verse in Revelation 5 says that He was standing, not lifted up on the cross. I urge you to remember that Christ is seated on a throne, not hanging on a cross right now.