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re: NOAA Whistleblower: How world leaders were duped over manipulated AGW data

Posted on 2/8/17 at 6:48 am to
Posted by bmy
Nashville
Member since Oct 2007
48203 posts
Posted on 2/8/17 at 6:48 am to
Wasn't this claim refuted by several independent studies?
Posted by Tesla
the Laurentian Abyss
Member since Dec 2011
9146 posts
Posted on 2/8/17 at 7:27 am to
quote:

quote:
Pure gold! Just the kind of brilliance required to settle science.


Pure platinum! Just the kind of brilliance required to deny science.

See how useless your comment is?


Platinum is $200 below gold. Just the kind of situational awareness I like in those telling me how smart they are.
Posted by BamaAtl
South of North
Member since Dec 2009
22253 posts
Posted on 2/8/17 at 7:28 am to
quote:

Wasn't this claim refuted by several independent studies?


Yes, but this board isn't exactly known for its ability to process information.
Posted by LSU2a
SWLA to Dallas
Member since Aug 2012
2899 posts
Posted on 2/8/17 at 7:48 am to
Are you even reading what this board is about? It refutes everything you just said lmfao.
Posted by NC_Tigah
Make Orwell Fiction Again
Member since Sep 2003
138880 posts
Posted on 2/8/17 at 8:15 am to
quote:

Are you even reading what this board is about?
This 'board' is about political talk.
quote:

It refutes everything you just said
You get out in front of your skies in these discussions . . . a lot. However, if you think "this 'board' refutes everything I've just said," make your case.

Just an FYI to bring you back to point, this thread is about "how world leaders were duped over manipulated AGW data." If you disagree, again, make your case.
Posted by Iosh
Bureau of Interstellar Immigration
Member since Dec 2012
18941 posts
Posted on 2/8/17 at 8:25 am to
quote:

LINK
quote:

Bates said in an interview Monday with The Associated Press that he was most concerned about the way data was handled, documented and stored, raising issues of transparency and availability. He said Karl didn't follow the more than 20 crucial data storage and handling steps that Bates created for NOAA. He said it looked like the June 2015 study was pushed out to influence the December 2015 climate treaty negotiations in Paris.

However Bates, who acknowledges that Earth is warming from man-made carbon dioxide emissions, said in the interview that there was "no data tampering, no data changing, nothing malicious."

"It's really a story of not disclosing what you did," Bates said in the interview. "It's not trumped up data in any way shape or form."
So:
- Bates designed a new, complicated set of procedures (20 steps!) for climate data archiving which required changes in documentation and software
- There were delays in implementation because of the usual software problems that crop up when a bureaucracy changes things
- Papers were published before their underlying data conformed to these procedures (not to the degree that other scientists couldn't replicate them, just not to Bates' standards)
- Bates retires and stews over this a bit while finding sympathetic ears at the House Science Committee and the Daily Mail, to whom he gives an interview
- They then publish and hype a story taking his complaints about data archiving and making them sound like "CLIMATEGATE II OR MAYBE III I'VE LOST COUNT"
- Bates then realizes what he's done and gives a second interview to the AP affirming this is about how to properly archive the data, not about the provenance or accuracy of the data itself
- Nobody reads the second interview and the first interview is posted twice a day by people who don't read carefully and think it proves AGW is a hoax
I suspect I will be reposting this AP link roughly one bazillion times
This post was edited on 2/8/17 at 9:19 am
Posted by buckeye_vol
Member since Jul 2014
35381 posts
Posted on 2/8/17 at 8:34 am to
quote:

Nobody reads the second interview and the first interview is posted twice a day by people who don't read carefully and think it proves AGW is a hoax
Out of sight, out of mind
Posted by NC_Tigah
Make Orwell Fiction Again
Member since Sep 2003
138880 posts
Posted on 2/8/17 at 8:39 am to
quote:

The Karl study looked mostly at ocean temperature records several decades old and determined that those older readings skewed too warm when compared to modern monitoring from buoys and other devices because they were taken in ships' engine rooms.


Jesus H. Christ, Iosh!
So either Karl or the idiots compiling your piece actually claim earlier temps "were taken in ships' engine rooms"? Seriously?

Wow!

Posted by Iosh
Bureau of Interstellar Immigration
Member since Dec 2012
18941 posts
Posted on 2/8/17 at 8:48 am to
quote:

Jesus H. Christ, Iosh!
So either Karl or the idiots compiling your piece actually claim earlier temps "were taken in ships' engine rooms"? Seriously?

Wow!
Rather than guess what you're getting at here, I'll just wait for you to get the appeals to incredulity out of your system and get to an actual point.
Posted by NC_Tigah
Make Orwell Fiction Again
Member since Sep 2003
138880 posts
Posted on 2/8/17 at 8:51 am to
quote:

Rather than guess what you're getting at here
To my knowledge, no oceanic temp recordings were EVER "taken in ships' engine rooms".

Posted by bmy
Nashville
Member since Oct 2007
48203 posts
Posted on 2/8/17 at 8:52 am to
quote:


Yes, but this board isn't exactly known for its ability to process information.


Well they do a great job of processing info that aligns with their political religion
Posted by Iosh
Bureau of Interstellar Immigration
Member since Dec 2012
18941 posts
Posted on 2/8/17 at 9:14 am to
So I'm guessing from the fact that you're seizing on a 100% irrelevant error (the writer or one of his sources misstating "engine room intake" as "in the engine room") that you have absolutely no response to the substance of the story or my post.
quote:

Just an FYI to bring you back to point, this thread is about "how world leaders were duped over manipulated AGW data." If you agree, again, make your case.
This post was edited on 2/8/17 at 9:17 am
Posted by NC_Tigah
Make Orwell Fiction Again
Member since Sep 2003
138880 posts
Posted on 2/8/17 at 10:36 am to
quote:

So I'm guessing from the fact that you're seizing on a 100% irrelevant error
100% irrelevant??
The difference between outside temperature and engine room temperature is irrelevant?

This is not someone issuing a verbal slip like "massacre". This was a written, considered piece. It is indicative of either profound stupidity, or flat-out deceit.
You pick it.

But yes, if the author is that stupid, it speaks strongly to the credibility of the piece.
Sorry.
Posted by Iosh
Bureau of Interstellar Immigration
Member since Dec 2012
18941 posts
Posted on 2/8/17 at 11:13 am to
quote:

100% irrelevant??
The difference between outside temperature and engine room temperature is irrelevant?
Obviously it's not irrelevant or they wouldn't adjust for it. What's irrelevant is the words this particular author used. If you substituted "engine room intake" for "engine rooms" nothing about the article would change, since both terms imply having to adjust the data to account for engine heat.

Quoting from the ERSST v4 paper:
quote:

These methodological inhomogeneities are believed to yield, for example, cold biases due to the heat loss by evaporation when SSTs were measured from some (particularly uninsulated) buckets, contrasting with warm biases due to the heat gain from the ship’s interior when engine room intake (ERI) samples were measured.
But let's assume you're right. Let's assume this imprecision is sufficient cause to suspect that the substantive parts of the story are fabricated. After all, if he mixed up "engine room" vs "engine room intake" he could've mixed up "data tampering" and "no data tampering," right? (I don't believe for a second you actually think this. I think you don't like to lose arguments and this is what you have to work with.)

Well, if you believe that dropping the word "intake" from a summary of the background issues is sufficient cause to disregard that source, you should also disregard the Daily Mail's original interview with Bates, since they committed a far more substantive error by overlaying the NOAA and HadCRUT graphs over each other without noting that the NOAA anomalies are baselined to a 1901-2000 average and HadCRUT to a 1961-1990 average. LINK

This is an error a high-schooler in AP statistics is expected to spot, and it cuts directly against an assertion explicitly made in the piece: LINK
quote:

The misleading 'pausebuster chart': The red line shows the current NOAA world temperature graph – which relies on the ‘adjusted’ and unreliable sea data cited in the flawed ‘Pausebuster’ paper. The blue line is the UK Met Office’s independently tested and verified ‘HadCRUT4’ record – showing lower monthly readings and a shallower recent warming trend
Assuming, probably wrongly, you are clicking these links and reading them, you might have noticed that that links to an archive.org snapshot of the Daily Mail story as it was originally published. That's because they edited that caption without, of course, noting there were corrections. Journalisms!

Yet I'm guessing that this error (and the many still remaining, like the assertion they "threw out" buoy data when they weighted it more) is not nearly as troubling to you as the AP writer not using the word "intake." I'm guessing that we can definitely assume David Rose's quotes of Bates are accurate while the AP is ~fake news~. I'm guessing this because your entire MO is to work backwards from the conclusion that AGW must be false no matter how many times you have to contradict yourself, change the subject, or seize on irrelevant details.
This post was edited on 2/8/17 at 11:37 am
Posted by NC_Tigah
Make Orwell Fiction Again
Member since Sep 2003
138880 posts
Posted on 2/8/17 at 11:42 am to
quote:

But let's assume you're right. Let's assume this imprecision is sufficient cause to suspect that the substantive parts of the story are fabricated. After all, if he mixed up "engine room" vs "engine room intake" he could've mixed up "data tampering" and "no data tampering," right?
Well we do seem to have a slight difference in quotes in this piece vs others. Correct?

After all, Bates did say this on Saturday:
quote:

When I pressed the co-authors, they said they had decided not to archive the dataset, but did not defend the decision. One of the co-authors said there were ‘some decisions [he was] not happy with’.
Right?

and after all, Bates did say this on Saturday:
quote:

Gradually, in the months after K15 came out, the evidence kept mounting that Tom Karl constantly had his ‘thumb on the scale’—in the documentation, scientific choices, and release of datasets—in an effort to discredit the notion of a global warming hiatus and rush to time the publication of the paper to influence national and international deliberations on climate policy.
Right?

and this:
quote:

I questioned another co-author about why they choose to use a 90% confidence threshold for evaluating the statistical significance of surface temperature trends, instead of the standard for significance of 95% — he also expressed reluctance and did not defend the decision. A NOAA NCEI supervisor remarked how it was eye-opening to watch Karl work the co-authors, mostly subtly but sometimes not, pushing choices to emphasize warming.


and this:
quote:

Gradually, in the months after K15 came out, the evidence kept mounting that Tom Karl constantly had his ‘thumb on the scale’—in the documentation, scientific choices, and release of datasets—in an effort to discredit the notion of a global warming hiatus and rush to time the publication of the paper to influence national and international deliberations on climate policy.


So now when an apparent dumbass who doesn't understand the difference between an external air intake and an engine room seems to say Bates never 'really' said what Bates really did say, it raises questions.
Posted by Iosh
Bureau of Interstellar Immigration
Member since Dec 2012
18941 posts
Posted on 2/8/17 at 11:51 am to
quote:

After all, Bates did say this on Saturday:
If you're not going to grant the veracity of Bates' statements in the AP based on irrelevant errors, I'm certainly not going to grant the veracity of any of those given the far more relevant errors in the Mail. Maybe he said them. Maybe he didn't.

Now, if you're willing to grant the veracity of his quotes to the AP, then maybe we can have a discussion on the extent to which these statements conflict. (Hint: Not as much as you seem to think. You've also repeated one twice.) But since you are only willing to grant the veracity of sources favorable to you, there's little point, in my view.
This post was edited on 2/8/17 at 11:57 am
Posted by NC_Tigah
Make Orwell Fiction Again
Member since Sep 2003
138880 posts
Posted on 2/8/17 at 12:05 pm to
quote:

If you're not going to grant the veracity of Bates' statements in the AP based on irrelevant errors, I'm certainly not going to grant the veracity of any of those given the far more relevant errors in the Mail.
I couldn't care less about the Mail. The quotes I provided were from John Bates.
Posted by Iosh
Bureau of Interstellar Immigration
Member since Dec 2012
18941 posts
Posted on 2/8/17 at 12:07 pm to
quote:

The quotes I provided were from John Bates.
Unless you personally have a recording of your conversation with him, you got them from the Mail. Which is not a reliable conduit by the standards with which you dismissed the AP story.
This post was edited on 2/8/17 at 12:08 pm
Posted by NC_Tigah
Make Orwell Fiction Again
Member since Sep 2003
138880 posts
Posted on 2/8/17 at 12:12 pm to
quote:

Unless you personally have a recording of your conversation with him, you got them from the Mail.
quote:

Climate scientists versus climate data
by John Bates
February 4, 2017

A look behind the curtain at NOAA’s climate data center.

I read with great irony recently that scientists are “frantically copying U.S. Climate data, fearing it might vanish under Trump” (e.g., Washington Post 13 December 2016). As a climate scientist formerly responsible for NOAA’s climate archive, the most critical issue in archival of climate data is actually scientists who are unwilling to formally archive and document their data. I spent the last decade cajoling climate scientists to archive their data and fully document the datasets. I established a climate data records program that was awarded a U.S. Department of Commerce Gold Medal in 2014 for visionary work in the acquisition, production, and preservation of climate data records (CDRs), which accurately describe the Earth’s changing environment.

The most serious example of a climate scientist not archiving or documenting a critical climate dataset was the study of Tom Karl et al. 2015 (hereafter referred to as the Karl study or K15), purporting to show no ‘hiatus’ in global warming in the 2000s (Federal scientists say there never was any global warming “pause”). The study drew criticism from other climate scientists, who disagreed with K15’s conclusion about the ‘hiatus.’ (Making sense of the early-2000s warming slowdown). The paper also drew the attention of the Chairman of the House Science Committee, Representative Lamar Smith, who questioned the timing of the report, which was issued just prior to the Obama Administration’s Clean Power Plan submission to the Paris Climate Conference in 2015.

In the following sections, I provide the details of how Mr. Karl failed to disclose critical information to NOAA, Science Magazine, and Chairman Smith regarding the datasets used in K15. I have extensive documentation that provides independent verification of the story below. I also provide my suggestions for how we might keep such a flagrant manipulation of scientific integrity guidelines and scientific publication standards from happening in the future. . . .
Posted by NC_Tigah
Make Orwell Fiction Again
Member since Sep 2003
138880 posts
Posted on 2/8/17 at 12:15 pm to
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