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re: Lessons of Viet Nam--everyone should watch the PBS series--
Posted on 9/25/17 at 9:17 pm to I B Freeman
Posted on 9/25/17 at 9:17 pm to I B Freeman
a-hole ? That's not very civil. If you ever visit me in Vietnam , after you fetch my pho, I will allow you to call me Ong Pimp or Cha Pimp. Whichever you prefer.
0
Posted on 9/25/17 at 9:17 pm to TigerFanInSouthland
Maybe but there were more opportunities for the wealthier kids to stay out of the draft than the poor kids. Nobody can deny that.
Posted on 9/25/17 at 9:18 pm to I B Freeman
quote:
The people of South VietNam didn't trust their own leaders. They were not going to fight to keep those people in power and that is why the Viet Cong were always a force in the war.
I know that, but I bet if you asked the average Vietnamese citizen in the decade after the war what they would've rather had, I bet you'd have gotten more answers of freedom than complete control government like they got.
Now, I will agree that the South's "president" was a piece of shite and sealed his people's fate with his actions.
Posted on 9/25/17 at 9:19 pm to SCLibertarian
quote:
The political establishment in D.C. see war as a political game, while the average working stiff is the one who fights and dies for said lies.
Like that hawkish "Maverick", Prisoner McCain? One of the worst.
Posted on 9/25/17 at 9:21 pm to weptiger
quote:
Like that hawkish "Maverick", Prisoner McCain? One of the worst.
Did you happen to catch that interview he did with Leslie Stahl last night on 60 Minutes? Complete fluff job on 60 Minutes' part. It was atrocious. McCain is a thorough piece of shite.
This post was edited on 9/25/17 at 9:26 pm
Posted on 9/25/17 at 9:21 pm to TigerFanInSouthland
Interesting demographic facts:
Statistically that is a very large difference between the South and the Northeast in deaths per 100,000 of population.
quote:
76% of the men sent to Vietnam were from lower middle/working class backgrounds.
Thee-fourths had family incomes above the poverty level; 50% were from middle income backgrounds.
Some 23% of Vietnam vets had fathers with professional, managerial or technical occupations.
79% of the men who served in Vietnam had a high school education or better when they entered the military service. (63% of Korean War vets and only 45% of WWII vets had completed high school upon separation.)
Deaths by region per 100,000 of pupulation: South -- 31%, West -- 29.9%; Midwest -- 28.4%; Northeast -- 23.5%.
Statistically that is a very large difference between the South and the Northeast in deaths per 100,000 of population.
This post was edited on 9/25/17 at 9:24 pm
Posted on 9/25/17 at 9:23 pm to SCLibertarian
Agree with you and the film shows how terrible LBJ was as a leader and president, among our worst ever. The leaders pursued a war of limited engagements and no tactical objectives while backing questionable governments and leaders. There was no way to win even though the us won nearly every major battle in military terms. Superior firepower and technology could not overcome sheer determination from a lesser equipped enemy (sounds familiar). Body counts and captured weapons became the measuring stick. US units took nameless hills and outposts only to withdraw via helicopter after losing a lot of men. The whole affair was a shameful waste of American lives and resources and one can argue that the way the American public views government was forever impacted. America had no business fighting there and should have allowed south Vietnam to determine its own fate.
This post was edited on 9/25/17 at 9:25 pm
Posted on 9/25/17 at 9:23 pm to I B Freeman
quote:
If TD existed in 1968 almost all the posters here would probably have been supporters of the war.
Um, you mean the Poliboard that bashes McCain and Log Cabin Lindsay for being warmongers?
Posted on 9/25/17 at 9:26 pm to Bestbank Tiger
quote:
If TD existed in 1968 almost all the posters here would probably have been supporters of the war.
Um, you mean the Poliboard that bashes McCain and Log Cabin Lindsay for being warmongers
Yeah--they don't bash Trump for the war mongering he does however. White Southerners were for the war--blacks too for that matter. They thought it patriotic duty.
Posted on 9/25/17 at 9:26 pm to TigerFanInSouthland
The oppression in Vietnam today is horrible. It's a truly nasty government. Don't let the positive nature of normalization fool you into thinking there isn't mass suffering and arbitrary punishment, random arrests, seizure of property and businesses, widespread poverty etc . It's still really bad . But obviously much better than 30 years ago.
Posted on 9/25/17 at 9:26 pm to TigerFanInSouthland
quote:
Did you happen to catch that interview he did with Leslie Stahl last night on 60 Minutes?
Yes. The he left clings to a guy on the right because they think he is weak, they can easily manipulate him or plan on knocking him down.
Posted on 9/25/17 at 9:28 pm to Bunyan
quote:
For me it's really my first time really learning about the war (only 21).
It all makes much more sense. What are you studying in school?
Posted on 9/25/17 at 9:31 pm to TigerDog83
My biggest thing with going to ward like Vietnam and Iraq is, you shouldn't send the military over to win hearts and minds. The military's job is to kill and break things, not diplomacy. The military is the stick of diplomacy, not the carrot.
Posted on 9/25/17 at 9:32 pm to TigerFanInSouthland
quote:As long as you keep believing that, there will be perpetual war.
Now, I will grant that we went into the war on bad intelligence, much like the Iraq War.
Because war is conducted for profit. Always has been. Always will be.
And as long as the elite can continue to fool the public into doing their dirty work; believing that they are somehow defending our freedom from the big bad boogeyman, they will continue to make excuses like "bad intelligence" for the endless wars.
That's just how the game is played, always has been. It's about money. It's ALWAYS about money
Posted on 9/25/17 at 9:32 pm to TigerFanInSouthland
It was eerie hearing the French talk about pacification and the US talk about hearts and minds in Vietnam. I came of age during this most recent Iraq War, and it was interesting to hear the same buzzwords. You'd think we learned our counterinsurgency lesson once, but it took us awhile to get it done in Iraq.
Posted on 9/25/17 at 9:33 pm to I B Freeman
quote:
If TD existed in 1968 almost all the posters here would probably have been supporters of the war. In the South we thought those "hippies" that were marching were traitors--un-American.
bullshite - this board is very much anti-foreign intervention.....where are you getting that notion?
Posted on 9/25/17 at 9:35 pm to TigerFanInSouthland
The most insane part of the whole thing is, we won the Cold War without firing a shot at the Soviets, why in the frick couldn't we do that in VN?
Posted on 9/25/17 at 9:38 pm to TigerFanInSouthland
quote:
The most insane part of the whole thing is, we won the Cold War without firing a shot at the Soviets, why in the frick couldn't we do that in VN
Because Boeing, Lockheed, McDonnell-Douglas, Olin-mathieson, Bell, etc. wouldn't get to fulfill massive contracts peddling their new toys and products to the government.
Posted on 9/25/17 at 9:39 pm to TigerFanInSouthland
Because one was a hot war and one was a cold war.
I didn't know about the domino theory. I mean I knew about it that I studied it in college, but it was still wild to hear Eisenhower (?) give a press conference and reference it in the series and the FP establishment just went right along with it.
I knew the war itself was terrible and the series does a good job of portraying that, but I think the real value is putting the French period and our slow engagement into a broader historical context.
I didn't know about the domino theory. I mean I knew about it that I studied it in college, but it was still wild to hear Eisenhower (?) give a press conference and reference it in the series and the FP establishment just went right along with it.
I knew the war itself was terrible and the series does a good job of portraying that, but I think the real value is putting the French period and our slow engagement into a broader historical context.
This post was edited on 9/25/17 at 9:40 pm
Posted on 9/25/17 at 9:39 pm to TigerFanInSouthland
You should watch the documentary. And millions of shots were fired in the Cold War but never directly between the primary foes.
This post was edited on 9/25/17 at 9:41 pm
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