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re: Is there a secular argument against abortions?
Posted on 5/4/17 at 7:42 am to Blob Fish
Posted on 5/4/17 at 7:42 am to Blob Fish
quote:
In the welfare nanny state that we live in and will be living in for the foreseeable future, if you take morality out of the equation, is it not cheaper for taxpayers to pay for a one time abortion than to pay for food, education, welfare, Medicaid, prison, drug rehab, etc. for all of these unwanted babies born to unfit parents?
If we are going to take morality out of it, why not simply kill all those on welfare too?!
1
Posted on 5/4/17 at 7:45 am to DisplacedBuckeye
Big picture and practically speaking, yeah absolutely I agree with that. There is, again practically speaking, rarely a standard we use to judge actions ourselves that doesn't in some way work back to the rules of reciprocity.
But as you yourself mentioned earlier, these discussions almost always shift towards absolute terms with absolute condemnations. That stance in my mind only emerges because the people who take such stances must believe in some objective morality. I think by pointing out there is no such thing as a truly objective or absolute morality, the discussion might actually become more fruitful.
But as you yourself mentioned earlier, these discussions almost always shift towards absolute terms with absolute condemnations. That stance in my mind only emerges because the people who take such stances must believe in some objective morality. I think by pointing out there is no such thing as a truly objective or absolute morality, the discussion might actually become more fruitful.
Posted on 5/4/17 at 7:47 am to Ross
quote:
While correct, don't miss my only point with that absurd example that there is no perfect, absolute moral scheme in this world
There doesn't need to be.
As i said earlier.
Just like any other human endeavor, beliefs regarding morality and human behavior are in constant competition
The fact you can't go to some book and find a definitive list of the best views does not require you to unilaterally disarm in that competition
Posted on 5/4/17 at 7:47 am to Ross
quote:
Big picture and practically speaking, yeah absolutely I agree with that. There is, again practically speaking, rarely a standard we use to judge actions ourselves that doesn't in some way work back to the rules of reciprocity.
But as you yourself mentioned earlier, these discussions almost always shift towards absolute terms with absolute condemnations. That stance in my mind only emerges because the people who take such stances must believe in some objective morality. I think by pointing out there is no such thing as a truly objective or absolute morality, the discussion might actually become more fruitful.
Agree with all of that.
Posted on 5/4/17 at 7:48 am to LSUTigersVCURams
quote:
Yes, that it's morally reprehensible.
The only arguments I have seen has been with secular arguments. Very few people have brought religion into the subject. It is not only the religious who do not like abortion. I'm not sure why people can't seem to grasp this.
This post was edited on 5/4/17 at 7:49 am
Posted on 5/4/17 at 7:51 am to ShortyRob
How about this then, which actually was a story I first read here:
A woman finds herself in the situation where her body cannot support a child she is carrying. She will almost certainly (but not 100% if she goes through with the pregnancy) die during the the pregnancy. Upon her death, the death is the fetus is obviously implied.
Does it not make sense on some level to have the abortion and save at least the mothers life rather than watching her and her unborn child both die?
An absolutist would certainly say that that abortion is amoral, and I just can't get myself there to make that judgement because I don't think that it is.
A woman finds herself in the situation where her body cannot support a child she is carrying. She will almost certainly (but not 100% if she goes through with the pregnancy) die during the the pregnancy. Upon her death, the death is the fetus is obviously implied.
Does it not make sense on some level to have the abortion and save at least the mothers life rather than watching her and her unborn child both die?
An absolutist would certainly say that that abortion is amoral, and I just can't get myself there to make that judgement because I don't think that it is.
This post was edited on 5/4/17 at 8:03 am
Posted on 5/4/17 at 7:57 am to Ross
quote:
How about this then, which actually was a story I first read here
Let me preface with two things.
1. I don't actually disagree with your prior post. Just fleshing it out
2. We've shifted from OP question to a different one. "Is there an absolute morality?" My answer to that is obviously no
quote:Of course
Does it not make sense on some level to have the abortion and save at least the mothers life rather than watching her and her unborn child both die?
quote:hmm. Facts not in evidence
An absolutist would certainly say that ththat abortion is amoral
That assertion seems more rooted in lefty strawman assertions tan realty. I know a lot of anti abortion people. Even those in the no exceptions for rape or incest column. And i can't think of one who would disagree with you on the scenario you laid out.
I'm not saying it's an unbeaten of stance but i don't think discussing extreme minorities on that is useful
Posted on 5/4/17 at 8:00 am to ShortyRob
quote:
And i can't think of one who would disagree with you on the scenario you laid out.
I believe there are a few in this thread. The argument made has been that if abortion is taking a life, and you believe that taking a life is murder, then abortion is always murder. Rape, incest, life of the mother, etc. All absolute.
Foo, was it you that made that argument previously?
Posted on 5/4/17 at 8:09 am to ShortyRob
I only intended to temporarily shift the question because one of the bigger criticisms of the secular point of view on the subject was that the spiritual point of view provided something objective which is more valuable than something more subjective. Who can disagree?
So, I set out to make it clear I don't think any moral scheme is truly absolute and that this discussion should never take place with an absolute judgement on the issue in mind.
However, on that same note, my answer is unchanged from my original post. Even with a relative morality, obviously secular arguments can be crafted against abortions, just not all abortions (at least not easily).
And trust me, I'm no "lefty" and if I presented a straw man argument I'll gladly rescind it, but I do not think that I have.
So, I set out to make it clear I don't think any moral scheme is truly absolute and that this discussion should never take place with an absolute judgement on the issue in mind.
However, on that same note, my answer is unchanged from my original post. Even with a relative morality, obviously secular arguments can be crafted against abortions, just not all abortions (at least not easily).
And trust me, I'm no "lefty" and if I presented a straw man argument I'll gladly rescind it, but I do not think that I have.
This post was edited on 5/4/17 at 8:11 am
Posted on 5/4/17 at 8:10 am to Blob Fish
Aborting a fetus because you as not ready to be a parent in my opinion is the same as aborting a fetus because it's female and you want a boy.
The whole abortion argument is based on lie after lie. They create hardships in their heads to justify the disgusting act of ending a baby's life for their convenience.
I accept that abortion is legal, I accept it and also feel that the people who get abortions out of convenience are the most disgusting creatures on this or any other planet.
I wish it were as easy to kill them. But alas I am a law abiding citizen.
Having said that I have come to realize what a credit they are doing for society. The overwhelming majority of abortions are preformed on and for the scum of the liberal left. The fact that these people are not procreating is a plus for society as a whole as it is obvious any child reared in such an environment would have no chance at a normal productive life where it grows into a self reliant positive contributor to society with moral values.
SO at beat abortion is a necessary evil, but you can still hate the pieces of shite that contributes to this foul act and at the same time recognize the benefit of the deed.
The whole abortion argument is based on lie after lie. They create hardships in their heads to justify the disgusting act of ending a baby's life for their convenience.
I accept that abortion is legal, I accept it and also feel that the people who get abortions out of convenience are the most disgusting creatures on this or any other planet.
I wish it were as easy to kill them. But alas I am a law abiding citizen.
Having said that I have come to realize what a credit they are doing for society. The overwhelming majority of abortions are preformed on and for the scum of the liberal left. The fact that these people are not procreating is a plus for society as a whole as it is obvious any child reared in such an environment would have no chance at a normal productive life where it grows into a self reliant positive contributor to society with moral values.
SO at beat abortion is a necessary evil, but you can still hate the pieces of shite that contributes to this foul act and at the same time recognize the benefit of the deed.
Posted on 5/4/17 at 8:11 am to Ross
quote:
Who can disagree?
Ultimately, religion provides no objective morality, either.
Posted on 5/4/17 at 8:12 am to Blob Fish
quote:
Is there a secular argument against abortions?
Does secularism include standard morals?
If there is a secular argument against murder, use this same argument against abortion.
Posted on 5/4/17 at 8:13 am to Ross
quote:Agreed
So, I set out to make it clear I don't think any moral scheme is truly absolute
quote:
. Even with a relative morality, obviously secular arguments can be crafted against abortions, just not all abortions (at least not easily).
Absolutely. I'm just arguing that secular =/= devoid of moral component. It means devoid of religiously created moral component
Posted on 5/4/17 at 8:14 am to Snipe
quote:
Aborting a fetus because you as not ready to be a parent
What about earlier in the pregnancy?
Posted on 5/4/17 at 8:15 am to DisplacedBuckeye
I think it can provide an objective framework, just not necessarily a good one. Probably as far as I'm personally willing to go on that subject because I'm sure you'll get some responses.
Posted on 5/4/17 at 8:15 am to DisplacedBuckeye
quote:
What about earlier in the pregnancy?
Aborting a fetus because you as not ready to be a parent.
Posted on 5/4/17 at 8:17 am to Snipe
quote:
Aborting a fetus because you as not ready to be a parent.
So you aren't opposed to emergency contraception or early-term abortions, only at a certain point?
Posted on 5/4/17 at 8:18 am to Ross
quote:
I think it can provide an objective framework, just not necessarily a good one.
Sure, but it still relies on faith and human interpretation.
Posted on 5/4/17 at 8:28 am to DisplacedBuckeye
quote:
So you aren't opposed to emergency contraception or early-term abortions, only at a certain point?
If you want to know what I'm opposed to simple ask that question instead of playing games.
I feel it is disgusting that people end pregnancy's because it's an inconvenience to them. I think people who have sex get pregnant and then decide that they don't want to parent the child so they end the pregnancy are the scum of the worst place on this or ant other planet.
Am I opposed to it? It's legal for people to be filthy asshats, If I had my choice everyone would understand what a sick morally bankrupt decision it is to kill a fetus for the sake of your own convenience.
This post was edited on 5/4/17 at 8:30 am
Posted on 5/4/17 at 8:32 am to Snipe
quote:
If you want to know what I'm opposed to simple ask that question instead of playing games.
I did. Twice.
quote:
I feel it is disgusting that people end pregnancy's because it's an inconvenience to them. I think people who have sex get pregnant and then decide that they don't want to parent the child so they end the pregnancy are the scum of the worst place on this or ant other planet.
In all cases, at any point after conception?
You're not articulating your points clearly. This is why I have to ask these questions. If you want to get pissy about it, be more precise, or simply don't answer.
quote:
If I had my choice everyone would understand what a sick morally bankrupt decision it is to kill a fetus for the sake of your own convenience.
See, here's the issue. I don't think you properly understand your own position.
At what point do you have a problem with this? Is it immediately at conception?
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