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re: If your wife was raped would you be opposed to her getting an abortion?
Posted on 7/24/22 at 11:50 pm to Azkiger
Posted on 7/24/22 at 11:50 pm to Azkiger
quote:My worldview provides a necessary distinction between God and man; the creator and the creature. It doesn't create rules that are ignored. God can't sin, and neither are we supposed to. God can't violate His own law because He would cease to be God if He could, as the law reflects His own perfect, holy, and unchangeable character.
Maybe, but if it is it'll be because you're going to set up a whole bunch of rules then argue how your worldview gets to ignore them.
quote:How about cancelling a family vacation because of the actions of one child? Is that wrong in your view? Was the U.S. involvement in Europe during WWII immoral because innocent civilians became casualties alongside guilty supporters of Nazi Germany during bombing raids? Are economic sanctions that affect the innocent civilians in a country alongside the guilty leaders immoral? We apply this principle of federal headship or federal representation in various ways in our own human-centered institutions. Is it immoral for the creator of all things to judge His own creation according to the actions of one representative? This doesn't even speak to the spiritual reality of a fallen, sinful nature being passed down to Adam's progeny, whereby our natural desire is to sin and rebel against our creator. There is no way for us to be neutral, and there is no way for us to be "innocent" before God on our own due to our very natures.
Imagine you spanking your children because of what Adam did, you getting fired because of what Adam did, your wife leaving you because of what Adam did.
That's patently insane.
Sure, you'd never do that, but God does and its perfectly logical and perfectly moral.
Yes, our representative ruined it for all of us, but we are not exactly kicking and screaming against our natures trying to honor God and worship Him in spite of our fallenness. You seem to be a posterchild of rebellion against the triune God, yet seem to be complaining that the natural man--such as yourself--is deemed guilty in God's sight. It's quite the interesting situation you are in.
The problem you and others have is that you always assume God and man are on equal footing with one another, and that God cannot do anything due to His status as God that man cannot do. That's why I've been emphasizing the difference in authority between God and man. I even gave examples of how we apply that principle of authority within our own human institutions.
The moral law does apply to God, but "thou shalt not kill" is a reference to murder, not lawful taking of life. God provides humans with exceptions to the taking of life that are legal: self-defense, war, and as a punishment for certain civil crimes. When God takes a life, it is always as the result of our guilt of sin. I don't think I've seen you issue a complaint against God taking the life of a 90 year-old in their sleep, but when He takes the life of a 10 year-old in a mass shooting event in a school, that is somehow immoral, though both are sinners and equally deserving of death according to God's perfect standard of righteousness.
quote:Like I said, it does apply to God. The moral law of God flows from His very character. He cannot sin, which is to say that He cannot violate the moral law, because He cannot act against His own character that the moral law reflects.
Why do you think that the moral laws that bind our behavior, like taking a life, don't apply to God.
quote:He does have authority over us, but it's not just an assertion; it's the necessary consequence of God being God. If God is God, and if God created us for His own purposes, then He has the authority to do with us as He wants. It's precisely why the analogy is used of God being a potter and we are the clay. God can mold the clay however He wants, and if He wants to make a bowl out of the clay for a good use, then He is free to do so, and if He wants to make a bowl or object of clay to be destroyed, then He's free to do that, as well. Why would God be under any obligation whatsoever to bless us in spite of our sin? Why can the creature demand anything of the creator?
I mean, I know you'll say something to the effect of "He created us, he has authority over us", but that's just an assertion.
quote:The executioner cannot murder a person in cold blood, but he can still pull the switch on the electric chair in the name of justice on behalf of the state. Why the double standard? It's actually not a double standard, because it's not murder for an agent of the state to use his due authority to take the life of a criminal in the name of justice.
It's not intuitive at all to imagine politicians also having to abide by the same moral codes as everyone else. Why doesn't that also apply to God?
quote:How has God broken His law against murder to put to death criminals who are guilty of cosmic treason for not worshipping Him as He has created them to do?
Some variation of "he's perfect!"? Great, so abiding by these rules should be easy. Anything you want to accomplish, you should be able to accomplish without breaking these morals.
The fundamental issue here is that you don't think we are under any obligation to God, and therefore, we are not guilty for anything worthy of being put to death for. Therefore, if God does take our lives, it must be considered unlawful (murder).
quote:Your misunderstanding of Christian/Biblical doctrine isn't me creating rules that are broken at all. You just don't like the results of the doctrine because it means you are obligated to worship your creator and you are guilty in His sight. The good news for you is that God has provided you a way of forgiveness. Trust in Jesus Christ, who is the God-man who paid the price of our sin on the cross.
At the end of the day all you have is "it's magic". Sure, that's not the most charitable way to phrase it. But it's hard to be charitable to people who construct all sorts of rules to box you in, then break them all immediately after.
That's the sort of behavior progressives partake in, and I'm not charitable to them at all...
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Posted on 7/24/22 at 11:59 pm to Azkiger
quote:I see you're trying to use the technical definition of a dictator vs. the common definition that has to do with being a tyrannical despot. When people say that God is a "dictator", they aren't expressing a sense of annoyance that He is the only one in charge; they are accusing God of being an evil bully that oppresses His subjects, as you'd expect from the human dictatorships that have existed for the past few centuries.
Oh, ok... Where's the senate? How is my voice heard? When were all these decisions made? Are they amendable? Is there a legal process by which we can remove our leader?
Bruh, come on. You're telling everyone to bend the knee and give up our autonomy. Follow it through.
He's a dictator, but he's perfect so he's a really really really really good dictator so its k
If we had a perfectly good, righteous, and holy person, who was all-wise, all-knowing, never changing, and perfectly just as our ruler (let's say our king), then there would be no way to legitimately criticize them for their decisions and judgements, because they would be a better ruler than we would, because we are not good, righteous, holy, all-wise, all-knowing, never changing, or perfectly just.
Are you arguing against the form of government God has as sole creator and ruler of the universe? Or, are you wanting to discuss why you think God is an oppressive despot?
Posted on 7/25/22 at 12:16 am to DisplacedBuckeye
quote:Independent, as opposed to dependent. Our thoughts are not controlled by God. They are not controlled by others. We are not "robots". We have the free agency to think in accordance to our natures and cognitive abilities as human beings.
I hate to be the one to tell you this, but that isn't independent thought when done under threat of force.
With that said, the freedom to think and act does not mean we have no moral responsibility of aligning our thoughts and actions to moral standard that God has provided. One can use independent thought to think and act against the laws of logic, but that doesn't mean that the thoughts and actions of a person doing so is free from the consequences of their thoughts and actions. Being irrational is not virtuous, and neither is exercising freedom against our creator.
quote:Probability is a tool that is used to help us make a prediction. Probability doesn't determine truth, it only helps us think through the mathematical likelihood of something being true when the truth is unknown to us. Like I said, probability doesn't change whether or not something is true. Probability affects our perception of what is or is not true; it does not affect the object of the truth claim.
The most base probability is binary. 0 or 1. Something is either true or it isn't.
And this is the problem when Christian try to use math and science to validate their fiction. You either must completely misunderstand something, or you have to incorrectly apply it.
I suspect that it's probably both here.
Posted on 7/25/22 at 12:22 am to DisplacedBuckeye
quote:God is the only possible perfect and good king.
You aren't the first subject to belive their dictator is perfect and good.
quote:That's irrelevant. Our man-made institutions are made for the living. Our souls are eternal, and God is judge over the living and the dead.
Sure, but those institutions leave you alone after you're dead.
quote:I'm happy to discuss those other interpretations and whether or not they should be trusted based on their own correspondence to reality, including the logical necessity of their claims. I'm glad you agree that your statement, "Do what you're told or you will be punished. Live as I say or you will be punished", as a specific indictment against God holds no water, though. Perhaps you are starting to see the futility of your fight against that which you don't acknowledge.
According to you. Others believe their interpretation is the correct definition of goodness.
quote:You know God exists in spite of your lack of acknowledgement. You are made in God's image and cannot help but reflect your creator. You reject the truth in unrighteousness and you worship the creature instead of the creator. Repent.
I don't hate your god. I don't even acknowledge the existence of your version.
Posted on 7/25/22 at 7:11 am to FooManChoo
quote:
Our thoughts are not controlled by God. They are not controlled by others.
Sure. You have a "choice."
Gun to your head. Believe or you will be shot.
Like a...dictator?
quote:
Probability is a tool that is used to help us make a prediction. Probability doesn't determine truth, it only helps us think through the mathematical likelihood of something being true when the truth is unknown to us. Like I said, probability doesn't change whether or not something is true. Probability affects our perception of what is or is not true; it does not affect the object of the truth claim.
Yeah that's nice.
The point stands. 0 or 1. True or false.
Posted on 7/25/22 at 7:14 am to FooManChoo
quote:
God is the only possible perfect and good king.
According to you.
quote:
Our man-made institutions are made for the living.
Religion is a man-made institution.
quote:
I'm glad you agree that your statement, "Do what you're told or you will be punished. Live as I say or you will be punished", as a specific indictment against God holds no water, though.
This is weak. I didn't agree to that.
I need not believe what you believe to hold a discussion.
Don't argue in bad faith.
quote:
You know God exists in spite of your lack of acknowledgement.
Then he's a bit of an a-hole, don't you think?
Posted on 7/25/22 at 10:09 am to DisplacedBuckeye
quote:There are always limits to freedom. Pure freedom is anarchy, where there is no true justice, and everyone is "enslaved" to anyone with a bigger stick than they have. Even the most free governments still have limits on actions. God is no different, but offers the purest form of governance that is perfectly just and loving (precisely because of the blessings we have in spite of our demerited status).
Sure. You have a "choice."
Gun to your head. Believe or you will be shot.
Like a...dictator?
Like I said, independent thought or action is not free from consequences. God doesn't force us to believe anything or do anything; we act entirely according to what we desire. God isn't putting a gun to our heads by telling us what to believe; we put a gun to our own heads by rejecting the purpose for what we are made. We are free to reject that purpose, but we are not free from the consequences of doing so. We are already guilty before God, so our free rejection of Him isn't God putting a gun to our heads at all. God's offer of salvation through Jesus is actually God offering to remove the gun from our own hands, and we are still free to accept it or reject it. We are free to destroy ourselves, and we have no one to blame but ourselves for doing so.
quote:What is true cannot be false. Repent and believe in the truth of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ before it's too late.
Yeah that's nice.
The point stands. 0 or 1. True or false.
Posted on 7/25/22 at 10:56 am to DisplacedBuckeye
quote:According to God, and logical necessity. Only God possess the qualities that would make a perfect and good king possible.
According to you.
quote:God makes men religious and man perverts true religion for his own purposes, but that isn't the same as saying that "religion is a man-made institution".
Religion is a man-made institution.
True religion is God-made, not man-made. God created us in His image with an innate desire to worship (though we pervert that desire and redirect that worship to anything and everything else other than God through sin). God provided the description of and the directions for true worship.
quote:Did I misunderstand you, then?
This is weak. I didn't agree to that.
I need not believe what you believe to hold a discussion.
Don't argue in bad faith.
You said: "Do what you're told or you will be punished. Live as I say or you will be punished"
I responded: "You can literally say the same thing about a Constitutional Republic like we have"
You responded with: "Sure, but those institutions leave you alone after you're dead."
You seem to be adding additional qualifiers to your original statement, but your original statement criticizing God for requiring obedience to Him or punishment would be meted out is no different than any other form of government, which you acknowledged. So if God requiring obedience is par for the course for any ruler or governing body, then that argument doesn't hold any weight (or water, as I said). Do you disagree?
quote:I don't.
Then he's a bit of an a-hole, don't you think?
God has given you life, many blessings that you've been able to enjoy over the course of your life so far, and ample opportunity to be saved in spite of your rejection of Him and His law, and He offers you forgiveness even now and opportunity for eternal life, which He is not obligated to offer someone who has spent their lives rebelling against Him. I'd say He has been more than generous with you, and yet you still think he's an a-hole. A real tyrant wouldn't give someone like you any second chance, yet here He is, giving you the Gospel message of salvation time and time again, and you still refuse it.
Repent of our sins against God and turn away from them. No longer live for yourself, but live for God, your creator. Put your trust in the sacrifice of God's son, Jesus, the Messiah, who was sent to fulfill all of the obligations of the law and died in our place so that trusting in His work, we will be reconciled to God and receive eternal life as His adopted sons. It is not yet too late for you. Accept the loving offer of pardon while it is still offered to you.
Posted on 7/25/22 at 12:36 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
There are always limits to freedom.
Those limits don't involve an eternity of suffering.
You can try as much as you want to equate your dictatorship to something else, but it is what it is.
quote:
What is true cannot be false.
What cannot be proven true can be false.
Posted on 7/25/22 at 12:39 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
Only God possess the qualities
What qualities?
I say so isn't a quality. It's a proclamation that doesn't inherently give truth.
quote:
God makes men religious
Men made men religious.
quote:
but
Apparently so.
quote:
I don't.
That's good, even if for a different reason.
I'm grateful that the fantasy of Christianity is just that. Can you imagine a world where the Bible was actually true? Gross.
Posted on 7/28/22 at 11:57 am to DisplacedBuckeye
quote:We can argue about whether or not the punishment is fitting for the crime (it is), but it doesn't change the fact that there are limits on freedom in every organized society that has leadership and rulers.
Those limits don't involve an eternity of suffering.
quote:When the word "dictatorship" is used, it's important to understand what is meant by it, because it is most common today to refer to a "dictatorship" as a tyrannical rule of a single, oppressive despot. God doesn't fit that description no matter how you want to define it. The best you can do is say that God is a single ruler who rules without the consent of his subjects, but that doesn't really tell us anything in itself other than that God is the ruler. It doesn't tell us about the kind of ruler God is, which is an important thing to discuss when calling Him a "dictator".
You can try as much as you want to equate your dictatorship to something else, but it is what it is.
quote:A truth claim (assertion) can be either true or false. The strength of the proof of the matter is in the eye of the beholder, since the amount of proof necessary to convince a person of the truthfulness of a claim varies from person to person. However, just because someone believes something is true doesn't make something true, just like someone believing something is false doesn't make it false.
What cannot be proven true can be false.
Regardless of all that, God's Word is truth. It isn't a matter of likelihood and probability, but of certainty. Repent.
Posted on 7/28/22 at 12:18 pm to DisplacedBuckeye
quote:A "perfect and good king" requires a person to have actual authority and dominion. They need to be perfectly righteous according to an objective standard of moral righteousness (goodness). They need to be unchanging, so that they could not become an imperfect or bad/evil king. They would have to have perfect knowledge (omniscience) and wisdom, so that they can rule correctly and justly, in truth, rather than unjustly due to lack of knowledge.
What qualities?
No finite, human ruler has the attributes to be a perfect and good king. God does.
quote:God made man in His image with a purpose to worship (Him), which is why men have that instinct to be moved towards religious affections and observances.
Men made men religious.
quote:Yes, it is so that man perverts true religion.
Apparently so.
quote:When someone refers to God as an "a-hole", what they are doing is judging God. No one is in a position to judge God, and even if a person would attempt it, what standard can anyone possibly use that is better than God's objective standard? All you would have is your own personal opinions based on your own desires and feelings. Such a standard cannot be objectively better than any other standard (even God's, if you believed God's standard didn't apply to you or anyone else). Without an objective standard to use, you cannot rationally criticize God. All you can do is say that you don't like His standard, but you can't rationally say it is bad or wrong, or that God is an "a-hole"; all you could do is say that it is your opinion that you don't like Him or His standard. And as always, I could reply with, "So what? Who cares about an opinion?"
That's good, even if for a different reason.
quote:The criminal hides from the cop and hopes that he will get away with his crimes. So, too, you are a criminal who has broken God's law and you hope that you won't be held accountable one day, but you will. Either your sins will be punished in Jesus Christ on the cross, or you will have to bear the punishment for your sins, yourself. I hope you put your trust in Jesus Christ.
I'm grateful that the fantasy of Christianity is just that. Can you imagine a world where the Bible was actually true? Gross.
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