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re: How is it possible that some Protestant churches support gay marriage?
Posted on 5/19/25 at 5:46 pm to Uga Alum
Posted on 5/19/25 at 5:46 pm to Uga Alum
quote:That's not true. Once we have been regenerated, we have new desires and actually want to obey God, however we still have the old, sinful nature within us. It's what Paul was talking about in Romans 6 and 7.
Right, so you believe that once someone mentally believes in God it changes their hearts and they no longer desire to do bad things. I can’t agree with that.
The issue isn't that we won't sin after we are regenerated, but that because we are regenerated, we will feel a godly sorrow for the sin we do commit and we will turn away from it and repent of it when it happens. Sanctification is a life-long process of being conformed more and more to the image of Christ in holiness. I've found that Roman Catholics conflate justification and sanctification.
Posted on 5/19/25 at 5:47 pm to FooManChoo
So to hell with everyone else who isn’t Christian? Even if they are good people? And are all Christians saved or just Calvinists?
This post was edited on 5/19/25 at 5:48 pm
Posted on 5/19/25 at 5:48 pm to Uga Alum
quote:
I can’t believe that God made some souls knowing that they were destined to fail and some knowing that they are destined for salvation. That’s awful. And if that’s the case, why should any of us try to be good if our destiny is sealed?
I firmly believe no matter what religion you belong to you know what is right or wrong almost instantly when a situation arises. It’s almost instinctual. You can feel it inside yourself if something feels wrong.
Everyone has this.
Whether you choose to ignore it is a different story. Ignore it enough and it’s gone until you can get that grace back if you ever do.
This post was edited on 5/19/25 at 5:50 pm
Posted on 5/19/25 at 5:53 pm to Uga Alum
quote:First of all, that is the case. Read Romans 9, especially verse 14 through the end of the chapter. Paul anticipates that sort of response by saying "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?".
I can’t believe that God made some souls knowing that they were destined to fail and some knowing that they are destined for salvation. That’s awful.
His answer? God is sovereign and can do as He pleases and we are in no position to question Him.
However, Paul does say that God's glory is magnified by His choosing some people to show mercy to.
I find it so odd how so many people will fight to the death over man's autonomy and freedom but don't give much thought to God's autonomy over His own creation and freedom to choose as He will.
quote:For one, we are commanded to by our creator. We are created to worship our creator and to give Him glory.
And if that’s the case, why should any of us try to be good if our destiny is sealed?
For another, we don't know who the elect are, which is why the offer of the gospel is freely given to all men without distinction. God knows who are His, and He will save whom He will. That's not for us to know, but we are supposed to obey and preach the good news indiscriminately.
Posted on 5/19/25 at 5:58 pm to FooManChoo
But if we are predestined to be saved or not to be saved it doesn’t matter whether we know we are saved or not because there is nothing we can do to change our situation. We still have no incentive to be good, even if God has commanded it of us. If I disobey his commandment to be good I am already either saved or not saved regardless.
Posted on 5/19/25 at 6:00 pm to Uga Alum
quote:Um.. they will go to Hell if they don't trust in Christ for their salvation, but it sounds like you're not asking that. I suppose you are asking if we just shouldn't care about them.
So to hell with everyone else who isn’t Christian?
If that's the case, I would say that we should care about them. All people are made in the image of God and we should love all people for that reason alone. However, we are also commanded to love all people and to preach the gospel to all people as the means of salvation that God uses. And since we don't know who the elect of God are, we are to preach to all men, women, and children equally.
So no, we shouldn't have a dismissive attitude towards the rest of the world. We should love them and seek their conversion so that they will have eternal life.
quote:"None is righteous, no, not one". Read Romans 3 on this part.
Even if they are good people?
There are no "good people" because goodness is judged according to God's word, and those who do "good" works apart from faith are still sinning (Rom. 14:23).
Again, no one is saved by the works of the law (doing good works), so that's why we are commanded by Christ to preach the gospel throughout the world, because faith comes by hearing, and Christ is the only way to the Father.
quote:Anyone who repents of their sins and trusts in the finished work of Jesus Christ alone by faith will be saved. Calvinism is about clarity of the gospel, not the gospel, itself. There will be many Calvinists in Hell and many Arminians in Heaven.
And are all Christians saved or just Calvinists?
Posted on 5/19/25 at 6:00 pm to FooManChoo
If it is already determined who is saved and not saved, then we have no incentive twice to read the Bible or obey the Ten Commandments.
Posted on 5/19/25 at 6:03 pm to FooManChoo
What about people who live in remote parts of the world who have never heard of Jesus Christ or the Bible? They are predetermined to be damned?
You keep citing scripture but scripture is very vague and ambiguous sometimes. How do you know you are interpreting correctly all the time without the assistance of a spiritual father?
You keep citing scripture but scripture is very vague and ambiguous sometimes. How do you know you are interpreting correctly all the time without the assistance of a spiritual father?
Posted on 5/19/25 at 6:04 pm to Uga Alum
quote:
Right, so you believe that once someone mentally believes in God it changes their hearts and they no longer desire to do bad things. I can’t agree with that.
It’s because you lack faith, and with it understanding. And look, you shouldn’t believe or not because of what I say on the matter. I’m just some random poster on TigerDroppings. What’s important is what God says on the matter in His word. That’s the only word that matters here. I’d encourage you to seek Him out while He can be found in His word and then believe upon Him. God cannot lie. Ask God to reveal Himself and His word, and He will.
God says:
quote:
Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
Matthew 7:7-8
Posted on 5/19/25 at 6:05 pm to FooManChoo
But if anyone who repents their sins is saved that means we have control over the outcome and everything is not predetermined.
Posted on 5/19/25 at 6:06 pm to Uga Alum
quote:The promise of salvation is given to every person who repents and believes in Christ. Just because not everyone wants to (because they can't--they haven't been or won't be born again) doesn't mean that the promise isn't true. We don't know who is saved, so we are to commanded to respond to the call to repentance and faith for salvation. If we don't before we die, that is because we weren't predestined to salvation. If we do, it's because we were. That's touching on the secret will of God, though, and no one knows who is elected and who isn't but God. That, again, is why we are to preach the gospel to everyone. It's our duty to preach and God will do with that preaching whatever most glorifies Himself.
But if we are predestined to be saved or not to be saved it doesn’t matter whether we know we are saved or not because there is nothing we can do to change our situation.
quote:Sure we do. The Bible speaks of better and worse estates in Heaven and Hell. It would be better for an unbeliever to be as obedient to God as possible in this life because it means it will be better for him in death. That's quite the incentive.
We still have no incentive to be good, even if God has commanded it of us.
quote:God is a God of means as well as ends. It's why Calvinism is a logically coherent (not to mention biblical) system, because it highlights the monergistic nature of salvation where God remains sovereign in all things while man remains responsible for his actions.
If I disobey his commandment to be good I am already either saved or not saved regardless.
Whether anyone is saved or not, we all should be seeking to honor God as God and submit to Christ as King and Lord through obedience because it is our duty as image-bearers of God.
This post was edited on 5/19/25 at 6:12 pm
Posted on 5/19/25 at 6:09 pm to Mike da Tigah
No my friend, I don’t lack faith. Your understanding of scripture just doesn’t logically make sense.
Someone who believes that Jesus died for our sins can still commit unspeakable acts. And I believe if they commit those acts and don’t repent, they will not achieve salvation.
Someone who believes that Jesus died for our sins can still commit unspeakable acts. And I believe if they commit those acts and don’t repent, they will not achieve salvation.
Posted on 5/19/25 at 6:10 pm to Uga Alum
quote:Yes. Paul again in Romans 1 and 2 goes through this.
What about people who live in remote parts of the world who have never heard of Jesus Christ or the Bible? They are predetermined to be damned?
If you want to believe in universalism, then why are you a Christian? If salvation exists apart from Christ, then why did Christ die for sin? And if He paid for all sins of all people without the need for faith in Him, why should we preach the gospel to anyone? Why not remain silent and let people die in their ignorance and guarantee their salvation?
quote:Yes, and it seems I'm the only one doing that in this conversation.
You keep citing scripture
quote:First of all, the Scriptures are plain and clear enough to be saved. Second, there are some difficult passages, which is why we should study the Scriptures as a whole to understand them. The less clear are interpreted by the clear, and the harder by the easier. It's why there are a lot of words in the Bible. We should make good use of them.
but scripture is very vague and ambiguous sometimes. How do you know you are interpreting correctly all the time without the assistance of a spiritual father?
I also do have assistance of spiritual fathers. There are fathers in my denomination and outside of it. There are also spiritual fathers who have been blessed with much insight and wisdom for the past 2,000 years that I can look to for clarity.
Posted on 5/19/25 at 6:14 pm to FooManChoo
So God intentionally makes people who he knows will repent and be saved and those he knows will not repent and therefore not be saved? What’s the point of making them repent then? What’s the point of sending them to earth? What’s the point of anything then? Just to be part of God’s autopilot?
Posted on 5/19/25 at 6:15 pm to Uga Alum
quote:I believe the most straightforward interpretation makes the most sense. It doesn’t seem likely that God would leave us an instruction manual and then make it difficult to understand. I’ve never enjoyed sermons that pull isolated verses from different parts of the Bible to make vague or unclear points, especially when those points seem out of context. I don’t think you need specialized education or training to understand what scripture says. That’s why I prefer sermons that walk through a passage, explaining it clearly and using other parts of scripture to support and reinforce it, just like you would do in a simple, direct reading.
How do you know you are interpreting correctly all the time without the assistance of a spiritual father?
Posted on 5/19/25 at 6:16 pm to Uga Alum
quote:We have a responsibility to repent, but that doesn't mean we are sovereign.
But if anyone who repents their sins is saved that means we have control over the outcome and everything is not predetermined.
"for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose" (Rom. 8:28)
Note that it's God's purpose, not ours, by which we who believe are called by God. And He works all things together for good, which means He is sovereign over all things, including our trials and hardships.
"The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps." -Prov. 16:9
Posted on 5/19/25 at 6:16 pm to Uga Alum
I suspect I’m the Protestant here that probably agrees with your beliefs 95% of the time, hence why I’m curious what Greek Orthodox believe outside of sola scriptura.
Posted on 5/19/25 at 6:19 pm to Uga Alum
quote:Again, yes. That's what Paul says in Rom. 9.
So God intentionally makes people who he knows will repent and be saved and those he knows will not repent and therefore not be saved?
quote:Who says that we're part of God's "autopilot"? We're not machines, but we can only act according to God's will in the matter. Our freedom to choose is limited by our capacity to choose, and our capacity to choose is limited by our wills. Our wills are corrupted and must be changed by the renewal of the Spirit, which Jesus refers to as being born again.
What’s the point of making them repent then? What’s the point of sending them to earth? What’s the point of anything then? Just to be part of God’s autopilot?
The point of all of this, though, is for God's glory. All that God does is ultimately for His own glory and our (His people) good.
Posted on 5/19/25 at 6:23 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
1 John seems to have been written to provide us assurance of faith. Perhaps you should read that book and let me know if you have any further questions
You didn't answer my question. If everything is predetermined, how do you know that you're one of the elect?
Citing a book in the Bible doesn't answer the question because the underlying question based on your worldview would be how are you certain you aren't predestined to interpret Scripture incorrectly?
Posted on 5/19/25 at 6:23 pm to FooManChoo
Greek Orthodox believe it is possible for people that aren’t Christian and have never heard of Christ or the Gospel because they live in remote parts of the world to be saved.
They are essentially held to a different standard than Christians. God can still see that there is good in their heart and grant them salvation. God is not going to send a good person to hell if through no fault of their own they’ve never heard of Christ.
They are essentially held to a different standard than Christians. God can still see that there is good in their heart and grant them salvation. God is not going to send a good person to hell if through no fault of their own they’ve never heard of Christ.
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