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Started By
Message
re: How can you possibly deny that healthcare is a human right?
Posted on 2/5/20 at 2:42 pm to TigerRad
Posted on 2/5/20 at 2:42 pm to TigerRad
quote:
which is that the 6th (as commonly interpreted) grants the right to another's labor. This fact undermines the big argument being used in this thread.
No it doesn't (refute the big argument)
It is a very specific case. There is no compulsion for any attorney to BE a public defender. I have no issue if a physician CHOOSES to be a "public doctor". And, this is ONLY because the Gov is about to visit a terrible burden on a citizen.
I don't believe a gov woker should be able to MAKE me drive my car out of the way / onto the shoulder of a roadway, etc....EXCEPT that a fire is raging and a firetruck must get through (ambulance / police car on a call). So, the fact that there is an EXAMPLE of a specific case does not obviate the general. JEEBUS. It really isn't a very difficult nuance to get
1
Posted on 2/5/20 at 2:43 pm to Dale51
quote:
As I pointed out, it actually saves forcing others to donate labor.
tell that to rural lawyers who are forced to do shite work for shite pay
because of the 6th
Posted on 2/5/20 at 2:44 pm to TigerRad
quote:
it says "assistance of counsel"
Exactly. You have a right to the assistance of counsel. Not a right to have the state provide that assistance of counsel.
quote:
Your interpretation is perfectly defensible, but you must recognize that youre in a small minority and that ship has sailed long ago.
Irrelevant. You asked how do people rectify saying you do not have a right to another man's labor with the Sixth Amendment. I pointed out why your premise was false.
Posted on 2/5/20 at 2:44 pm to TigerRad
quote:
because of the 6th
Not because of the Sixth. Because of Gideon.
Posted on 2/5/20 at 2:44 pm to TigerRad
quote:
but you didnt address the central question, which is that the 6th (as commonly interpreted) grants the right to another's labor. This fact undermines the big argument being used in this thread.
Take the "L" already.
Posted on 2/5/20 at 2:47 pm to BlackHelicopterPilot
quote:
There is no compulsion for any attorney to BE a public defender.
au contraire
Attorneys are frequently compelled by judges to represent defendants in rural areas or areas with inadequate PD coverage.
Because of the Bill of Rights
its also why our tax dollars are taken and appropriated for PD offices
Posted on 2/5/20 at 2:48 pm to TigerRad
quote:
Because of the Bill of Rights
Because of Gideon. Not the Bill of Rights.
You saying this over and over doesn't make it true.
Posted on 2/5/20 at 2:48 pm to Centinel
quote:
Exactly. You have a right to the assistance of counsel. Not a right to have the state provide that assistance of counsel.
"assist" is a verb
it is the labor of another
Posted on 2/5/20 at 2:48 pm to TigerRad
Public defenders are paid just not paid well. Very few lawyers spend their entire careers as public defenders.
Posted on 2/5/20 at 2:49 pm to TigerRad
quote:
"assist" is a verb
it is the labor of another
And where in the Sixth does it say this labor is to be provided by the State?
Posted on 2/5/20 at 2:50 pm to TigerRad
quote:It does not guarantee a "right" to the labor of any attorney, nor does it guarantee a right to elective counsel, as in rendering civil suit. Likewise there is no intelligent proposition holding that nonelective healthcare is denied currently in the US.
It clearly guarantees a "right" to the labor of an attorney.
Surely those are not the arguments you are bringing.
Posted on 2/5/20 at 2:51 pm to TigerRad
quote:
Attorneys are frequently
An attorney would destroy you on the stand for using such imprecise language. How "frequent"? What percentage? Is that SAME percentage okay with you as it comes to medicine / physicians?
quote:
"assist" is a verb
it is the labor of another
Ugh...okay. I'd prefer to argue with a lamp. At least, I believe it is bright.
Posted on 2/5/20 at 2:51 pm to Dale51
quote:
Take the "L" already.
as soon as someone can reconcile their "no right to labor" argument with "assistance of counsel" right. Yall have danced around it but none have done it yet.
btw I totally agree about health care lol
Posted on 2/5/20 at 2:52 pm to tiggerthetooth
And yet all of those countries come to US for medical care.
Posted on 2/5/20 at 2:53 pm to TigerRad
quote:
as soon as someone can reconcile their "no right to labor" argument with "assistance of counsel" right.
Yall have danced around it but none have done it yet.
We can explain it to you. We can't understand it for you
Posted on 2/5/20 at 2:53 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
Surely those are not the arguments you are bringing.
correct
my only point is "assistance of counsel" is another's labor, and therefore the 6th undermines the logic of this thread
Posted on 2/5/20 at 2:53 pm to TigerRad
quote:
as soon as someone can reconcile their "no right to labor" argument with "assistance of counsel" right.
You have yet to answer my question. Where in the Sixth Amendment does it say the "assistance of counsel" was to be provided by the State?
Posted on 2/5/20 at 2:54 pm to Centinel
quote:
And where in the Sixth does it say this labor is to be provided by the State?
beside the point
assist is still a verb
Posted on 2/5/20 at 2:54 pm to TigerRad
quote:
my only point is "assistance of counsel" is another's labor, and therefore the 6th undermines the logic of this thread
Only a child has to have absolutes. No adult is battling this "nuance" as if it is a great conundrum.
Posted on 2/5/20 at 2:54 pm to tiggerthetooth
Maintenance of health /wellness is a human right centered on the decisions /lifestyle choices of the individual. The role of government should be to foster an environment that allows the individual to thrive. Precision wellness based on the individual.
Sick care is a privilege that should only be needed when above fails. Instead this model is passed off as “healthcare”. The individual defers his rights to large institutions who “know what is best” for them. They forfeit decision making to others and hope someone can fix them once they break or are unable to maintain homeostasis (“get sick”). Population based recommendations tend to be the rule as the individual is reduced to a stat in a religion of RCTs. Individuals in this model have no “right” to demand the service/time of others. Your right is to do everything you can to not “get sick”.
This discussion gets us into the themes of victimhood, individuality, mindset, decentralized power, and autonomy
Heal yourself
Help heal others
Sick care is a privilege that should only be needed when above fails. Instead this model is passed off as “healthcare”. The individual defers his rights to large institutions who “know what is best” for them. They forfeit decision making to others and hope someone can fix them once they break or are unable to maintain homeostasis (“get sick”). Population based recommendations tend to be the rule as the individual is reduced to a stat in a religion of RCTs. Individuals in this model have no “right” to demand the service/time of others. Your right is to do everything you can to not “get sick”.
This discussion gets us into the themes of victimhood, individuality, mindset, decentralized power, and autonomy
Heal yourself
Help heal others
This post was edited on 2/5/20 at 2:56 pm
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