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re: FDR, Pearl Harbor, The “Great Man” Myth And The True Historical Record…

Posted on 12/14/25 at 1:10 pm to
Posted by Toomer Deplorable
Team Bitter Clinger
Member since May 2020
23640 posts
Posted on 12/14/25 at 1:10 pm to
quote:

Narax


Posted by Narax
Member since Jan 2023
6183 posts
Posted on 12/14/25 at 1:16 pm to
quote:

FDR didn't sacrifice Pearl Harbor intentionally, but rather by monumental negligence of intelligence. By intelligence i didn't mean intellectual, but the information the administration had at the time.


That's a valid argument.

There was no follow up to check with Hawaii on what their moves were.

There was inertia, laziness, "I'm sure someone else is doing that", "This is good enough" etc... going on.

Fundamentally a lack of urgency was present.

The administration mishandled the beginning of the war, there was an obvious desire to get into the European war, and keep Japan out of it, so we and the British could focus on Germany.
Posted by GetmorewithLes
UK Basketball Fan
Member since Jan 2011
22289 posts
Posted on 12/14/25 at 8:11 pm to
quote:

The administration knew attack was imminent, not specifically the Pearl Harbor attack. The fact that Pearl Harbor could have been predicted as the most likely site for initial attacks doesn't take a brilliant mind. Anyone with minimum knowledge of the US NAVY would have predicted the likelihood.


So every person in the Navy and the War Dept was just plain incompetent and negligent? Hindsight is so 20/20. You need to transport yourself back to 1940 where there is no internet, no radar, little aerial recon and see how enlightened you are about the world back then with the info at hand. Nobody in their right mind suspecting an attack would have their entire fleet minus the carriers at anchor.
Posted by tigger1
Member since Mar 2005
3749 posts
Posted on 12/15/25 at 9:19 am to
Briefings

1st everyone is leaving off the briefings
a. Briefings are held on the Japanese responses to the US embargos.
1. In those briefings it was told the Japanese would likely go to war and that the war would begin with no war declaration or only a within a few hours of one.
a. The history of Japanese wars in the past was brought up in these briefings and that history is full of no war declaration before using surprise attacks.

No one brought up the key 3 events that Kimmel either asked about or was never told about.

1st The British attack on Taranto on 11/12 November 1940.
a. The question came up about the depth of the harbor, and Kimmel was told 60 feet.
b. Not told was the British had modified their torpedoes to be able to attack the Italian ships as the harbor depth was less than 60 feet were the key ships are anchored,
c. This is the start of the idea for the Japanese attack on Peral Harbor.

2nd the bomb plot message.
a. The key message is never given to Kimmel or Short.
b. The spy was ordered to plot all ships coming in and out of Peral and where they are docked.
c. That spy is even updating the docking even on Dec 6 evening and the information is being send to the Fleet on the way to Peral, the whole trip.
d. The Japanese knew the Carriers are away from Peral before takeoff Sunday morning due to this information.

3rd The evening of Dec. 6 FDR is given the 13-part document and knows war is coming.
a. This is not confirmed until late 1947, as the personal aid does not testify until second investigation.
b. FDR is said to have tried to call about this that evening, but the person was not home.

This post was edited on 12/15/25 at 9:49 am
Posted by tigger1
Member since Mar 2005
3749 posts
Posted on 12/15/25 at 9:39 am to
To give an idea on how things play out in Washington DC, here is just part of how a message is built:

Stimson himself drafted the first sentence of the dispatch. As originally written the first sentence read, Negotiations with Japan have been terminated." This was softened after Stimson consulted Secretary Hull by phone. As revised, it read, Negotiations with Japan appear to be terminated to all practical purposes with only the barest possibilities that the Japanese Government might come and offer to continue." The next sentence, "Japanese future action unpredictable but hostile action is possible at any moment," was put in by Gerow or Bundy.

The next gives how the President wants this to play out,,,,
This post was edited on 12/15/25 at 9:40 am
Posted by stitchop
jonesboro
Member since Oct 2020
494 posts
Posted on 12/16/25 at 8:54 am to
quote:

So every person in the Navy and the War Dept was just plain incompetent and negligent?


The answer to your question is a clear note.
As a matter of fact most people in the Navy and the Dept of War were competent and diligent.

We can also "transport" ourselves back to 1940, by a careful study of documents and accounts of meetings and study of the 1940 state of affairs with the Japanese war machines.

The Dept. of war was very concerned with Japan's future war plans, and there were many in the department assigned to the study of possible Japanese plans.
There are large amount of documents available that you or i can examine. Now long declassified reports include many different possibilities of Japanese aggression toward the US Navy Pacific Fleet.

Many Naval experts and administration advisers were concerned and convinced that Pearl Harbor was a main location for Japanese attack if and when it came.

During the months leading up to Pearl Harbor, the notion that Japan was going to attack the US soon was mostly not in question by most advisors and Defense experts.

Whether or not Pearl Harbor was the target they simply didn't or couldn't Know for a fact, but that it was a major target was not in debate.

Also, there were many who were very concerned about the entire fleet being anchored at Pearl Harbor.
These concerns are documented and now declassified.

The administration had intelligent, knowledgeable and competent advisers available. However, they chose to listen to the small minority who were obviously wrong.


FDR listened and believed the wrong people.
I can say with great certainty that FDR did not allow, or want the Pearl Harbor attack to happen.
FDR's problem was taking advice from the small minority who were, i believe, sincere in their peacenik ways, but ignoring sound advisers and competent experts because the information and most probable predictions didn't fit their own ideas.
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