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Message
re: Can anyone defend being a libertarian anymore?
Posted on 2/17/25 at 7:21 am to Stinger_1066
Posted on 2/17/25 at 7:21 am to Stinger_1066
quote:
Dude, settle down. I'm just talking out my arse. It is a pipe dream.
0
Posted on 2/17/25 at 7:30 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
The article you posted didn't even define it well, and I commented as much. I gave no definition at all.
From the article I posted
Civic nationalism is often associated with Western nations and is based on the principles of citizenship, political participation, and shared values. It emphasizes the importance of a collective identity that transcends ethnic, cultural, or religious differences. Civic nationalists believe that anyone who subscribes to the country’s values and participates in its political life can be a part of the nation.
Key characteristics of civic nationalism
Inclusivity: Civic nationalism is open to individuals from diverse backgrounds, as long as they commit to the nation’s values and principles.
Political participation: Civic nationalism emphasizes the importance of active participation in the political process, such as voting and engaging in public discourse.
Shared values: The foundation of civic nationalism lies in a common set of values, such as democracy, freedom, and equality.
You do realize your position is an opinion, not fact, correct?
Posted on 2/17/25 at 7:49 am to SlayTime
quote:
You do realize your position is an opinion, not fact, correct?
Yes, what you quoted was an opinion of mine.
What you posted
quote:
You gave your definition of what you believe civic nationalism is,
Was an incorrect factual assertion. As I pointed out, I never gave any such definition.
Posted on 2/17/25 at 7:53 am to OBReb6
quote:
Tariffs aren’t libertarian, locked down border isn’t libertarian
Why not?
Posted on 2/17/25 at 7:56 am to Azkiger
quote:
Why not?
Do you want a link to the official libertarian platform? Do you want links to articles by the most influential libertarian thought leaders?
I can’t tell if you’re just asking out of ignorance, or if you’re trying to challenge this notion. Those are well established anti libertarian principles, but there are some libertarians who are more flexible on those issues.
Posted on 2/17/25 at 7:59 am to OBReb6
quote:
I can’t tell if you’re just asking out of ignorance, or if you’re trying to challenge this notion.
This is part of the implied argument in my initial posts to you
quote:
but there are some libertarians who are more flexible on those issues.
The same as the people who identify as "small government conservative" but have only argued for more government since 2016
Posted on 2/17/25 at 7:59 am to SlowFlowPro
ETA I would start a small government conservatives are a myth thread but I’ve been on a tear lately and quickly getting as bad of a reflexive negative reputation as you have. The time isn’t right to burn through that poster capital.
This post was edited on 2/17/25 at 8:03 am
Posted on 2/17/25 at 8:01 am to OBReb6
quote:
Do you want a link to the official libertarian platform? Do you want links to articles by the most influential libertarian thought leaders?
Not sure why you're conflating people/parties with an ideal.
Posted on 2/17/25 at 8:05 am to Azkiger
quote:
Not sure why you're conflating people/parties with an ideal.
lol. This is the root of the entire thread premise.
Libertarian is a fake platform. The only way to achieve policy change is via political parties and power plays. The actual feeble attempt the libertarians put forth to work towards achieving these ends, you shoot down as not real libertarianism.
This is high quality humor
Posted on 2/17/25 at 8:08 am to OBReb6
quote:
This is the root of the entire thread premise.
Libertarian is a fake platform. The only way to achieve policy change is via political parties and power plays. The actual feeble attempt the libertarians put forth to work towards achieving these ends, you shoot down as not real libertarianism.
Not really as your screed so far, according to you yourself, is aimed at both big L and small l libertarians.
Can you please tell me how the ideal of libertarianism is incompatable with tarries and borders?
Posted on 2/17/25 at 8:12 am to OBReb6
It goes back to, did you want actual change?
Then you should have voted for Trump.
Be more like Dave Smith and less like the never Trump libertarians on this board.
Then you should have voted for Trump.
Be more like Dave Smith and less like the never Trump libertarians on this board.
Posted on 2/17/25 at 8:15 am to Azkiger
Libertarian thought considers borders are arbitrary, and only achievable through state force and implied or actual violence. This is a breach of the non aggression principle. Plus, immigrants freely acting on their own for economic purposes is a mechanism of the free marketplace.
Tariffs should be completely obvious and it’s weird you’re even asking this. But it is a tax that impacts the free market and manipulates the flow of goods and services that would not occur under natural free market conditions. Citizens of the importing economy pay higher prices to offset the tariff, exporters into the economy with tariffs have to deal with an artificial decrease in demand. Thus a somewhat less than free market situation is the result.
Tariffs should be completely obvious and it’s weird you’re even asking this. But it is a tax that impacts the free market and manipulates the flow of goods and services that would not occur under natural free market conditions. Citizens of the importing economy pay higher prices to offset the tariff, exporters into the economy with tariffs have to deal with an artificial decrease in demand. Thus a somewhat less than free market situation is the result.
Posted on 2/17/25 at 8:15 am to OBReb6
I think they will eventually expose themselves here like that poster.
You just have to know what you're looking for.
You just have to know what you're looking for.
Posted on 2/17/25 at 8:21 am to Azkiger
quote:
Can you please tell me how the ideal of libertarianism is incompatable with tarries and borders?
Tariffs are literal economic regulation and expansion of state power into private commerce. It's going to be very hard to argue they're libertarian in any way. You don't even have to get into hardcore libertarian theory to see why. Just read Milton Friedman or Thomas Sowell.
Borders are more of a Big-L issue.
Posted on 2/17/25 at 8:21 am to OBReb6
quote:
Libertarian thought considers borders are arbitrary, and only achievable through state force and implied or actual violence.
Libertarianism advocates for minimal state interference. By definition if there are no borders there is no state. If there is no state how can you advocate for minimal state interference
quote:
Tariffs should be completely obvious and it’s weird you’re even asking this. But it is a tax that impacts the free market and manipulates the flow of goods and services that would not occur under natural free market conditions.
I don't see how this applies to tariffs created in response and inkind. If the British put a 10% tariff on American cars, and we put a 10% on their cars, don't the tariffs cancel each other out? Neither automakers have an advantage over one another. Seems like a fair market then.
Posted on 2/17/25 at 8:27 am to OBReb6
quote:
Libertarian is a fake platform.
Posted on 2/17/25 at 8:28 am to Sizzle_DAWG
quote:
Hey dummy, natural order is about dominance.
Protectionism is feminine. So is MAGA collectivism
Posted on 2/17/25 at 8:30 am to OBReb6
I thought everyone here was on their knees for Milei and Elon. What happened?
This post was edited on 2/17/25 at 8:30 am
Posted on 2/17/25 at 8:39 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
Was an incorrect factual assertion. As I pointed out, I never gave any such definition.
Ok. What is your opinion on on what defines ethnic nationalism? I know you said you don’t support any of the parameters within the articles definition.
Are there any aspects of ethnic nationalism you would attribute it to that you could support?
And based on your opinion, do you consider yourself most closely aligned with civic nationalism?
Posted on 2/17/25 at 8:45 am to Azkiger
quote:
Libertarianism advocates for minimal state interference. By definition if there are no borders there is no state. If there is no state how can you advocate for minimal state interference
Congratulations, you reverse engineered the destruction of the libertarian/anarcho capitalist position
quote:
I don't see how this applies to tariffs created in response and inkind. If the British put a 10% tariff on American cars, and we put a 10% on their cars, don't the tariffs cancel each other out? Neither automakers have an advantage over one another. Seems like a fair market then.
This doesn’t offset anything I said about tariffs, unless the equal application eventually results in the overall elimination.
You’re just lining out all the reasons that a free market does not exist, which I agree with completely, and giving solutions that are not libertarian, and pretending that they are libertarian
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