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re: Biggest split in modern Orthodox history

Posted on 10/23/18 at 11:47 pm to
Posted by bfniii
Member since Nov 2005
17840 posts
Posted on 10/23/18 at 11:47 pm to
quote:

AUveritas
you are ignorant and you are obstinate about it. you're not even trying to get educated.

quote:

He says what he says
yep, which i explained to you. your problem is, your interpretation does not match scripture as a whole.

quote:

No mental gymnastics required on this end
you obviously have never been trained in hermeneutics.

quote:

Also, commentaries? Who's?
ah, yes. the genetic fallacy. what difference does it make who wrote it? they either follow proper, time honored exegesis/hermeneutics or they don't. but you knew that already, didn't you?

quote:

I'll stick with Patristic sources
what did i say that defies the patristics?

quote:

James 2:24 where it says we're not saved by faith alone
you don't even understand what you are reading. james is quoting an aphorism as if to settle the matter of the self-sufficiency of a faith even if it fails to act. he is not at any point saying action is part of saving grace. the action is the outworking of the saving faith. Living faith cannot be disjoined from deeds but the faith is most certainly what "saves." Not the deeds themselves. An even cursory reading of the NT shows all authors to be in agreement with that, such as Paul in romans 10:9 or 10:14. Abraham proved his faith through deeds. If what you are saying is true, Abraham would have necessarily had to complete the sacrifice. Jesus talked about being born again or born from above. He told his disciples to preach the good news, not be activists. Jesus said you will know them by their fruit. He did NOT say they are saved by their fruitful action. John the Baptist said “Produce fruit in keeping with repentance." Notice that the repentance is already present.

James was addressing the question of alleged inactive faith. Faith necessarily leads to ministerial action. That is how faith is known. But the action is the outworking of the already present saving faith. For Paul the goal of saving faith was justification; for James the goal was usefulness - faith that instigates action. For James mere faith was an empty boast that masked great evil. Faith is trust in God alone, but it must be whole-hearted and produce good deeds based on the mercy of God.

It could be restated this way, if the command is to believe and be still, then inaction is called for. But that is not the command. It is believe and produce fruit. The fruit is merely the logical outworking of the saving belief. James was correcting the former, not denying the latter.

quote:

many Churches thought the Epistles of Clement and The Shepherd of Hermas were Scripture
first, this doesn't address the point i made. second, what you are saying is not exactly true. churches found expedience in these books. however, when the churches began to develop a homogeneous liturgy, these 2 books failed the tests of canonicity.

quote:

This begs the question of why did Protestants then decide to use the Masoratic texts instead.
it's not like they used the MT exclusively. the MT has important insights. and it's also not like they just quit looking to refine scripture because protestants were the ones who employed the ugaritic inscriptions that improved upon the textus receptus.

quote:

The Patristic writings were a huge factor leading me from Protestantism
then you totally, totally missed the point. as you have on several other matters.

quote:

Sorry but truth is truth. I wont stop sharing it.
you have been shown to be misled on a number of topics. are you incapable of agreeing that hurts the witness of the kingdom? something something false teachers....
Posted by biglego
Ask your mom where I been
Member since Nov 2007
76284 posts
Posted on 10/24/18 at 1:02 am to
quote:

Living faith cannot be disjoined from deeds but the faith is most certainly what "saves." Not the deeds themselves

I don’t know any Christian, catholic or otherwise, who would argue with this. Why did Luther have such a problem with James?
Posted by AUveritas
Member since Aug 2013
2920 posts
Posted on 10/24/18 at 4:32 am to
quote:

yep, which i explained to you. your problem is, your interpretation does not match scripture as a whole. 

Sure it does. It matches Jesus and Paul perfectly.

quote:

you obviously have never been trained in hermeneutics. 

Actually I went to a Baptist college and studied to become a preacher. 1500 years before these heresiea were taught. But yeah - Jesus, Paul and the Church had it wrong and you and your personal interpretations and commentaries have cracked the code.

quote:

ah, yes. the genetic fallacy. what difference does it make who wrote it? they either follow proper, time honored exegesis/hermeneutics or they don't. but you knew that already, didn't you?


Please share these time honored methods

quote:

what did i say that defies the patristics? 


The Solas
quote:

quoting an aphorism as if to settle the matter of the self-sufficiency of a faith even if it fails to act. he is not at any point saying action is part of saving grace. the action is the outworking of the saving faith. Living faith cannot be disjoined from deeds but the faith is most certainly what "saves." Not the deeds themselves. An even cursory reading of the NT shows all authors to be in agreement with that, such as Paul in romans 10:9 or 10:14. Abraham proved his faith through deeds. If what you are saying is true, Abraham would have necessarily had to complete the sacrifice. Jesus talked about being born again or born from above. He told his disciples to preach the good news, not be activists. Jesus said you will know them by their fruit. He did NOT say they are saved by their fruitful action. John the Baptist said “Produce fruit in keeping with repentance." Notice that the repentance is already present. 

James was addressing the question of alleged inactive faith. Faith necessarily leads to ministerial action. That is how faith is known. But the action is the outworking of the already present saving faith. For Paul the goal of saving faith was justification; for James the goal was usefulness - faith that instigates action. For James mere faith was an empty boast that masked great evil. Faith is trust in God alone, but it must be whole-hearted and produce good deeds based on the mercy of God. 

It could be restated this way, if the command is to believe and be still, then inaction is called for. But that is not the command. It is believe and produce fruit. The fruit is merely the logical outworking of the saving belief. James was correcting the former, not denying the latter. 



There are the mental gymnastics. James really didn't mean what he said. The Church had it wrong for 1500 years. Hysterical. And a little sad.

quote:

first, this doesn't address the point i made. second, what you are saying is not exactly true. churches found expedience in these books. however, when the churches began to develop a homogeneous liturgy, these 2 books failed the tests of canonicity. 


Exactly

quote:

 it's not like they used the MT exclusively. the MT has important insights. and it's also not like they just quit looking to refine scripture because protestants were the ones who employed the ugaritic inscriptions that improved upon the textus receptus


It was created by Jewish leaders after Jesus to prove He wasn't Messiah

quote:

you have been shown to be misled on a number of topics. are you incapable of agreeing that hurts the witness of the kingdom? something something false teachers...


Lol. You saying I have and showing I have aren't the same thing. I'm waiting one Bible verse or Patristic source advocating for faith or Scripture alone. After all, I mentioned the only verse in the Bible that has those words together. Its hysterical to see you think you've proved your beliefs.






Posted by AUveritas
Member since Aug 2013
2920 posts
Posted on 10/24/18 at 5:10 am to
And you seem to be implying I am saying works save which is untrue. I'm saying you can't divorce faith and works. Both are necessary for salvation. Hence Sola Fide ia false.

And at least be intellectually honest: what you mean when you sprak of exegesis and hermeneutics is appealing to a post 16th century person that uses some arbitrary standard to interpret Scripture in a way that confirms what you already believe. You have fashioned a god in your image.
Posted by TigerFanInSouthland
Louisiana
Member since Aug 2012
28065 posts
Posted on 10/24/18 at 6:27 am to
quote:

And you seem to be implying I am saying works save which is untrue. I'm saying you can't divorce faith and works. Both are necessary for salvation. Hence Sola Fide ia false.


Where did Christ say that it was possible to enter the Kingdom of Heaven with works? See, when you say our works are a requirement of our salvation, that is going directly against Christ’s perfect and ultimate sacrifice. If we could gain salvation through our deeds, then we could lose salvation. And if we could never do anything good enough to earn our salvation, why would we be able to lose our salvation upon our becoming believers?

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest any man should boast.

There isn’t a single work you or I could do to gain salvation.

I’m not as well versed as you or the other gentleman in the thread in this type of debate, not by a long shot. But as a Baptist, I see a lot of things the Catholics (Roman, Orthodox or otherwise) do that I have yet to find in the Bible where Christ or any other early church leader called for.
This post was edited on 10/24/18 at 8:02 am
Posted by AUveritas
Member since Aug 2013
2920 posts
Posted on 10/24/18 at 7:42 am to
quote:


Where did Christ say that it was possible to enter the Kingdom of Heaven with works?


Matthew 25:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.


Here's the part where you tell me Jesus didn't actually mean what He said
Posted by Tmcgin
BATON ROUGE
Member since Jun 2010
4969 posts
Posted on 10/24/18 at 7:50 am to
i saw this on Life of Brian --i think it was a shoe
Posted by TigerFanInSouthland
Louisiana
Member since Aug 2012
28065 posts
Posted on 10/24/18 at 7:52 am to
So I don’t have to actually get saved to go to Heaven? That’s odd because in John 3, Christ talks to Nicodemus and says only those born again through Christ will enter heaven. To further expound on that, Christ came down because the law was impossible to keep. He cane down to be the fulfillment of the law. Are you saying Christ’s sacrifice isn’t enough for sinful man to enter heaven?
Posted by the808bass
The Lou
Member since Oct 2012
111515 posts
Posted on 10/24/18 at 7:54 am to
quote:

The Catholic Church has never held such a doctrine


No on cares if they held that doctrine. They practiced it.
Posted by biglego
Ask your mom where I been
Member since Nov 2007
76284 posts
Posted on 10/24/18 at 8:51 am to
Again, to my knowledge Catholic doctrine doesn’t claim that works alone will save. Catholics claim that works and faith can’t be divorced. Otherwise, Hitler will be in heaven as long as he had faith in Jesus.
Posted by CelticDog
Member since Apr 2015
42867 posts
Posted on 10/24/18 at 8:54 am to
quote:

The human institution, administration, and perversion of religion is Satan's greatest victory.







the very idea that there are personified powers of good and evil vying for world domination is man made fiction.


Posted by bamafan1001
Member since Jun 2011
15783 posts
Posted on 10/24/18 at 9:01 am to
quote:

Apparently Jesus’ sacrifice alone was enough,


yes
Posted by bamafan1001
Member since Jun 2011
15783 posts
Posted on 10/24/18 at 9:09 am to
quote:

Hitler will be in heaven as long as he had faith in Jesus.




If he repented, sure. The murderer being crucified beside Jesus was given salvation.
Posted by TigerFanInSouthland
Louisiana
Member since Aug 2012
28065 posts
Posted on 10/24/18 at 9:51 am to
quote:

James was a liar according to Protestants


No, he was not. I’ve never heard a Protestant claim that.
Posted by bamafan1001
Member since Jun 2011
15783 posts
Posted on 10/24/18 at 10:30 am to
James wasnt a liar, just misinterpreted. He is correctly saying that faith must be genuine. One cannot just say the words, and not truly believe and be saved. God judges the heart and sees intentions. Works will come naturally from someone who genuinely believes.

The thought that we have to contribute something in addition to Jesus' sacrifice to earn salvation is dangerously wrong. It is spitting in the face of a holy God. Our best works are filthy rags.

Jesus said to judge a tree by its fruit. Look at the Catholic Church now and tell me if that tree is a healthy one blessed by God? I see an institution covering up child rape and other heinous behavior. I see a Pope more concerned with the right worldly political message than the truth of the Word. I see organizations like Catholic charities that act more as political activist groups than an arm of the church that is helping those in need.

Posted by AUveritas
Member since Aug 2013
2920 posts
Posted on 10/24/18 at 12:55 pm to
quote:

 Are you saying Christ’s sacrifice isn’t enough for sinful man to enter heaven?


Of course it is. If you don't use a medicine correctly and it doesn't help you, does it mean the medicine is insufficient?
This post was edited on 10/24/18 at 2:01 pm
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