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re: An example of why drugs should not be legalized
Posted on 3/13/18 at 2:26 pm to tiggerthetooth
Posted on 3/13/18 at 2:26 pm to tiggerthetooth
quote:
think we should legalize all drugs so we can figure out who the real idiots are.
I sure don't think we need laws to protect idiots from doing idiotic things because they don't work
0
Posted on 3/13/18 at 2:27 pm to Iosh
quote:
"An example of why drugs should be cooked by qualified professional chemists subject to product liability laws"
how libertarian of you....
lol. remember when you claimed to be a libertarian?
Posted on 3/13/18 at 3:12 pm to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
Separate issue. Alaska overregulated the shite out of the industry and it's a very bad thing.
And upon legalization, you think the federal government wouldn't overregulate the shite out of every drug? Isn't that pretty much what the FDA does all day, every day?
So upon legalization, you still have the illegal market, able to undercut the price of the legal market. You still have all the associated crime and everything else that comes part in parcel with the illegal drug market. What have you done?
Posted on 3/13/18 at 3:24 pm to Eurocat
The govt should give drugs away for free. Then maybe I won't have to lock everything up just to keep the dope head losers from stealing my stuff and the Mexican cartels can get back to exporting tamales and the crips can get back to harmonizing on the street corner.
This post was edited on 3/13/18 at 6:15 pm
Posted on 3/13/18 at 3:28 pm to troyt37
quote:
quote:
Separate issue. Alaska overregulated the shite out of the industry and it's a very bad thing.
And upon legalization, you think the federal government wouldn't overregulate the shite out of every drug? Isn't that pretty much what the FDA does all day, every day?
So upon legalization, you still have the illegal market, able to undercut the price of the legal market. You still have all the associated crime and everything else that comes part in parcel with the illegal drug market. What have you done?
Are you under the false impression that the power of the black market wouldn't be diminished dramatically, even under heavy regulation?
Basic economics will show you that as the market takes hold, supply increases, choices increase and the black market begins to deconstruct. To happened here, albeit more slowly with heavy regulation
Do you "have done" a lot.
Freedom
Lower prices
Less violence
Better quality
Smaller CJ system
Posted on 3/13/18 at 4:36 pm to troyt37
quote:ask Colorado
So upon legalization, you still have the illegal market, able to undercut the price of the legal market. You still have all the associated crime and everything else that comes part in parcel with the illegal drug market. What have you done?
they still have the blackmarket, and a f**kton of tax dollars
Posted on 3/13/18 at 4:49 pm to Iosh
quote:
You misspelled "An example of why drugs should be cooked by qualified professional chemists subject to product liability laws"
Y'all are going to have a hurdle to clear - trial lawyers.
How in the frick are you going to get away with selling meth, heroin, cocaine, MDMA, etc., over the counter, with brand names, offices, facilities, and not get sued into oblivion?
Posted on 3/13/18 at 4:52 pm to Ace Midnight
quote:Same way Diageo and Altria do?
How in the frick are you going to get away with selling meth, heroin, cocaine, MDMA, etc., over the counter, with brand names, offices, facilities, and not get sued into oblivion?
Posted on 3/13/18 at 4:53 pm to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
Roughly 25%
And how many successfully recover from it?
Posted on 3/13/18 at 4:57 pm to Iosh
quote:
Same way Diageo and Altria do?
You know alcohol and cigs frequently take 20, 30 years to kill, right?
I'm not talking about weed - set that aside.
Heroin, meth and coke are incredibly dangerous recreational drugs, particularly for the unwary. If you're one of the "chosen" - you can get hooked on heroin in as few as 3 or 4 doses, struggle with it for 5 to 8 years and just have it kill you. Meth and coke change the brain chemistry almost immediately and permanently. Now, if there was a clean, clear pharmaceutical supply of all three of these drugs, it would be marginally better for the user - from a safety standpoint.
But, the societal cost is going to be extreme. I'm not saying this as an alarmist. I'm saying it as a rational adult.
Again, I'm not talking about weed.
Posted on 3/13/18 at 5:00 pm to CptBengal
quote:
product liability laws"
how libertarian of you....
Libertarians aren't "anti law"
Posted on 3/13/18 at 5:01 pm to Y.A. Tittle
quote:
What percentage of heroin users become addicted? What percentage are able to "kick the habit"? How bout meth?
I'm not gonna play 20 questions with you. Please, make your point and I'll promise to discuss it with you.
Posted on 3/13/18 at 5:02 pm to Y.A. Tittle
quote:
Damn, my downvoter is quick on the draw
It's not me FTR
Posted on 3/13/18 at 5:04 pm to troyt37
quote:
And upon legalization, you think the federal government wouldn't overregulate the shite out of every drug? Isn't that pretty much what the FDA does all day, every day?
So upon legalization, you still have the illegal market, able to undercut the price of the legal market. You still have all the associated crime and everything else that comes part in parcel with the illegal drug market. What have you done?
What is your argument here?
Posted on 3/13/18 at 5:11 pm to Ace Midnight
quote:Cigs, sure. Alcohol has plenty of direct kills. There's a couple thousand deaths a year in the US just from primary overdose, not counting DUIs or anything. I don't claim to be an expert, but it's plausible that number would be an order of magnitude higher if liquor were prepared/adulterated by illegal bootleggers.
You know alcohol and cigs frequently take 20, 30 years to kill, right?
I'm interested in a citation that meth and coke "change your brain chemistry immediately AND permanently." I'm aware that they change it immediately (they would be very uninteresting if they didn't) and that they can do so permanently with habitual use. Combining the two claims is stronger than anything I've read outside of DARE pamphlets.
But as a non-expert who has attended a major law school, I can at least vouch for there being a significant number of casual amphetamine and coke users who can handle it the way non-alcoholics handle alcohol. And most experts doing comparative harm analyses put alcohol right up there with the other three in terms of the damage it can do. David Nutt has a study in the Lancet that puts alcohol above all of them! LINK (The actual study is paywalled but my guess is that the main culprit here is DUIs since heroin users tend to nod off at home.)
I am genuinely unsure about opiates (by "unsure" I mean decrim vs legalization) but speed and coke? Put 'em in the liquor stores for all I care.
This post was edited on 3/13/18 at 5:24 pm
Posted on 3/13/18 at 5:59 pm to Ace Midnight
quote:
And how many successfully recover from it?
Not sure. However if legal and viable pathways to recovery I'm sure more would be successful
Posted on 3/13/18 at 6:00 pm to Iosh
quote:
I'm interested in a citation that meth and coke "change your brain chemistry immediately AND permanently."
Coke
Metro UK from 2015 - this one is referenced everywhere
Huffpo - from a different study in 2009
UPI from 2003
Meth
There is less on meth, and this is a recovery site, but these drugs use similar mechanisms, particularly the stimulants
This one suggests that meth damage may be reversible - at least to a degree
For some balance, this is Time saying that permanent damage from meth is a lot of whooey - but I can find no such optimistic pieces on cocaine recovery
This post was edited on 3/13/18 at 6:01 pm
Posted on 3/13/18 at 6:02 pm to Iosh
quote:
The question is not "will opiate addicts ruin their lives" because the answer is yes regardless of anything the government does. It's "what policies best minimize harm and maximize future chances to get clean."
The solution most want is whatever makes them feel best about themselves and causes the most punishment for people who aren't perfect.
Posted on 3/13/18 at 6:31 pm to MrCarton
quote:
What is your argument here?
My argument is, you aren't making any of the improvements to society that those advocating for decriminalizing hard drugs tell is it would make.
Unless you think that addicts are going to be willing to pay more, much more for legal drugs, and will continue to pay more regardless of their situation, then you are going to have all of the criminal aspects of the illegal drug trade, even though you've made it legal.
You'll still have ilegal drug dealing, so you'll still have dealers, gangs and their turf wars, and the cartels, despots, and rogue elements importing it.
Chances are, the only thing you'll really accomplish is to increase the price of illegal drugs somewhere close to where the government markets it.
Posted on 3/13/18 at 6:33 pm to troyt37
quote:
you aren't making any of the improvements to society that those advocating for decriminalizing hard drugs tell is it would make.
I'm not for decriminalizing, im for legalizing
This post was edited on 3/13/18 at 6:34 pm
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