re: Abortion as a political issue

Posted by Freauxzen

Washington

Member since Feb 2006

38442 posts

Posted on 8/27/24 at 1:56 pm to SlowFlowPro

I don't disagree with your assessment of how Americans think. But I'd say that that "view" that most Americans have is a Progressive twisting of logic that has allowed to be pervasive in society because it suits multiple needs. And it's been bludgeoned enough to make even people who vote red above to "have better shite to worry about."

But that's a result of an awful culture, right and left, a complicit media and allowing Progressives to define the argument and the fetus.

It's not morals, it's not science. It's not logic. It's a manufactured cultural "perspective" at best.

And if the media actually treated it as a perspective, rather than a truth, then maybe the conversation would shift.

You aren't wrong that Conservatives can't shift the conversation now, but I'd argue they'd give up, forever, the ability to have the conversation if they "give in" per your idea.

We would never be able to go back. Maybe your assumption is we could at some point if they win perspectives over time?

Posted by wackatimesthree

Member since Oct 2019

10666 posts

Posted on 8/27/24 at 1:58 pm to SlowFlowPro

quote:
Again, Youngkin came out in support of a 20-week ban and the 3 major exceptions and he won a blue state...in 2021.

Then you just refuted your characterization that only "extremists" get to frame the issue, didn't you?

quote:
He went on the record with reasonable policy

Let's hear the "logic" behind having to kill unborn humans before 20 weeks. tell me how that is such a "reasonable" position?

If it's not really a human (which everyone knows that it is), then why do any limits at all make sense? If it is, why is a 20 week limit "reasonable?"

I think you mean "popular," not "reasonable."

When the issue is killing human beings I really don't care what's popular, and neither should you.

quote:
and the DEMs/Left couldn't frame him as some Evangelical or extremist.

Sure they could have if they had really wanted to like they want to regarding Trump. The could and can say anything they want. Again, they KEEP lying about Donald Trump signing a national abortion ban.

You're ignoring what may be the biggest problem with your example. We're not talking about national media in a national election and we're not talking about the most hated candidate since Richard Nixon. It's a whole different subset of voters and a whole different scenario with regard to availability of information of campaign planks.

It's apples and wingnuts.

It's very likely only a minority of voters in that election even knew what his abortion stance was, since from what I read about it, that didn't seem to be one of the major issues in the race.

Posted by SlowFlowPro

With populists, expect populism

Member since Jan 2004

466927 posts

Posted on 8/27/24 at 2:02 pm to Freauxzen

quote:
I don't disagree with your assessment of how Americans think. But I'd say that that "view" that most Americans have is a Progressive twisting of logic that has allowed to be pervasive in society because it suits multiple needs. And it's been bludgeoned enough to make even people who vote red above to "have better shite to worry about."

But that's a result of an awful culture, right and left, a complicit media and allowing Progressives to define the argument and the fetus.

It's not morals, it's not science. It's not logic. It's a manufactured cultural "perspective" at best.

You're stripping agency from like 60-70% of the population.

Look at the historical data. The views today aren't outside of historical norms.

quote:
You aren't wrong that Conservatives can't shift the conversation now, but I'd argue they'd give up, forever, the ability to have the conversation if they "give in" per your idea.

They are welcome to hold these beliefs in private as personal morality choices.

They can have that conversation on the personal level all they want.

quote:
We would never be able to go back. Maybe your assumption is we could at some point if they win perspectives over time?

The stances on abortion today are within the historical norms of modernity. "Go back" to when?

here is Gallup data back to 75

There has been no huge shift or deviation

Posted by SlowFlowPro

With populists, expect populism

Member since Jan 2004

466927 posts

Posted on 8/27/24 at 2:07 pm to wackatimesthree

quote:
Then you just refuted your characterization that only "extremists" get to frame the issue, didn't you?

No.

My point is that by projecting reasonable and palatable policies, the Left won't be able to rely on extremists to frame the GOP stance.

quote:
Let's hear the "logic" behind having to kill unborn humans before 20 weeks. tell me how that is such a "reasonable" position?

If it's not really a human (which everyone knows that it is), then why do any limits at all make sense? If it is, why is a 20 week limit "reasonable?"

I think you mean "popular," not "reasonable."

When the issue is killing human beings I really don't care what's popular, and neither should you.

quote:
Abortion as a political issue

Perhaps you thought you were posting on the Southern Baptist message board?

You certainly are not discussing the topic at hand. Popularity matters a great deal in a democracy.

quote:
Sure they could have if they had really wanted to

They wanted to. They couldn't, because he promoted reasonable policies they couldn't attack him on without hurting the DEMs.

quote:
Again, they KEEP lying about Donald Trump signing a national abortion ban.

Because he remains vague on his stance and the preferred GOP stance.

Go back to my first comment in this post

quote:
My point is that by projecting reasonable and palatable policies, the Left won't be able to rely on extremists to frame the GOP stance.

Trump should have done this in 2016. Now he's stuck with the Left framing his position, especially after his role in Dobbs (which he claims and celebrates).

Trump defaulting to this vague "state issue" bullshite is weak and vague, which, again, allows the Left to define his position.

quote:
It's very likely only a minority of voters in that election even knew what his abortion stance was

He doesn't really have one, publicly at least.

Posted by llfshoals

Member since Nov 2010

20579 posts

Posted on 8/27/24 at 2:16 pm to SlowFlowPro

quote:
A majority of Americans do not believe what is terminated is a human being until a certain point in the pregnancy. It is a very, very disputed fact.

The fact is indisputable.

Their willingness to lie about it doesn’t change the fact. When challenged on their position none of them can defend it.

quote:
quote:even then, more DEM election victories = more abortions.

what, you think if you agree with them now that children have no value to get some votes you can ever return to a place where they are valued?

I don’t see that as ever being possible.

2 ...

Posted by antibarner

Member since Oct 2009

26147 posts

Posted on 8/27/24 at 2:19 pm to llfshoals

Heres a question the pro abortion crowd doesnt like. That "fetus" is not a baby. But you let someone cause a mother to lose a four month fetus and in some states thats manslaughter.

Now HOW can that be? Can't have it both ways

Posted by SlowFlowPro

With populists, expect populism

Member since Jan 2004

466927 posts

Posted on 8/27/24 at 2:20 pm to llfshoals

quote:
The fact is indisputable.

Again, literally a majority of Americans disagree with you.

quote:
Their willingness to lie about it doesn’t change the fact. When challenged on their position none of them can defend it.

*to your satisfaction and your framing

quote:
what, you think if you agree with them now that children have no value to get some votes you can ever return to a place where they are valued?

Fatalism

quote:
I don’t see that as ever being possible.

Of course you don't.

Posted by Freauxzen

Washington

Member since Feb 2006

38442 posts

Posted on 8/27/24 at 2:22 pm to SlowFlowPro

quote:
You're stripping agency from like 60-70% of the population.

Anyone who parrots the phrases "This is about a woman's choice," or "Abortion is healthcare," or "My body my choice," or "We can't tell women what they do with their bodies," is totally missing the point of the argument of abortion 100%. So yes, they have been influenced by the reframe of the argument.

quote:
They are welcome to hold these beliefs in private as personal morality choices.

They can have that conversation on the personal level all they want.

I hear you. I think you want a Republican to come out and say something to the effect of "Personally, I believe that abortion is murder, however, I am willing to compromise on that point and allow for abortions up until 20 weeks. I will support forever this line, and hold my personal views to myself," or something like that.

You think Republicans will see that as a strong play? And you think the Left and the media won't get around calling that person some sort of liar?

quote:
The stances on abortion today are within the historical norms of modernity. "Go back" to when?

Well, you keep saying history back to 1975. That isn't history. Yes, abortion has been around for a long time. Yes it has been accepted in a variety of cultures and practiced. But at least some form of "shame" or culture perception kept the practice of it at a large scale in check.... until the 1960s.

I mean, "Go back," as in, go back to being a party that believes humanity starts at conception. You could never go back once adopting a new position.

quote:
There has been no huge shift or deviation

That's not the point though. Nor does it determine the moral implications.

Posted by grich31

Youngsville, La

Member since May 2008

2006 posts

Posted on 8/27/24 at 2:23 pm to JackaReaux

So is that why he put Supreme Court justices on court to overturn Roe vs Wade which was a national right and didn’t need any state involvement, so stop with the he wanted to leave it up to states, he wanted that win because he thought it was better for him politically but was a huge problem in 2020

Posted by Mike da Tigah

Bravo Romeo Lima Alpha

Member since Feb 2005

61379 posts

Posted on 8/27/24 at 2:23 pm to SlowFlowPro

quote:
As of today, there is nothing that restricts national action on abortion.

Except the Supreme Court of course. It’s a state issue, not a federal one.

Posted by wackatimesthree

Member since Oct 2019

10666 posts

Posted on 8/27/24 at 2:25 pm to SlowFlowPro

quote:
No.

Yes.

You keep using the word "allowed." How was this guy "allowed" to frame his own message if only "extremists" are "allowed" to frame it?

And why didn't the inertia of all of the "extremists" framing the issue nationally over-ride his own rogue message? Maybe abortion wasn't a big issue in his election?

quote:
Perhaps you thought you were posting on the Southern Baptist message board?

That's what I thought.

An appeal to ridicule. If you're going to use words like "reasonable," one would think you could explain why your viewpoint was actually reasonable.

Otherwise you should just tell the truth. For all of your insinuations that this is about reason and logic for you, and emotion and anti-logical personal beliefs for those who disagree, it's actually the other way around. Disagree? Then let's hear the logic.

You're not answering any of my specific questions about that. Don't think it's not being noticed. And not just by me.

quote:
Popularity matters a great deal in a democracy.

Good thing we have a constitutional republic. Because when we ignore the spirit of the idea that the constitution was founded on and enslave people or disenfranchise people or some other such obvious violation of it, we have a basis other than popularity by which we can find our way back to the actual idea and limits on what mob rule can demand.

Regardless, "popular" is not the same as "reasonable," so my point remains.

quote:
They wanted to. They couldn't, because he promoted reasonable policies they couldn't attack him on without hurting the DEMs.

So he just adopted the same policy they did then? Well that was certainly a great victory to win that election. Conservatism was certainly advanced by that move.

quote:
He doesn't really have one, publicly at least.

I was talking about the governor that serves as your "proof." And you just answered that above. of course abortion wasn't a factor in that election if all the guy did was take the same stance as his opponents.

Posted by SlowFlowPro

With populists, expect populism

Member since Jan 2004

466927 posts

Posted on 8/27/24 at 2:27 pm to Freauxzen

quote:
Anyone who parrots the phrases "This is about a woman's choice," or "Abortion is healthcare," or "My body my choice," or "We can't tell women what they do with their bodies," is totally missing the point of the argument of abortion

Your framing of the argument of abortion.

quote:
So yes, they have been influenced by the reframe of the argument.

Or they just believe something differently than you.

quote:
You think Republicans will see that as a strong play? And you think the Left and the media won't get around calling that person some sort of liar?

I think a chunk of Republicans will be happy and the Evangelicals will melt down to an insane degree

The media can only get around a position like that if the pol has shown not to be trusted on the issue, and it would take time. Eventually the media would have no play, because then they're pushing extremist DEM versions of abortion that the population rejects.

quote:
Well, you keep saying history back to 1975. That isn't history.

That's almost 50 years and shows times before the major DEM media takeover (which hurts your points above trying to remove agency from voters).

quote:
being a party that believes humanity starts at conception.

You'd be an extreme minority party.

quote:
That's not the point though

It applies to some of your points, especially the one stripping agency.

quote:
Nor does it determine the moral implications.

Again, that's a personal matter. Nobody in this thread has said people shouldn't be able to hold personal views that abortion (even an absolutist stance) is immoral.

2 ...

Posted by SlowFlowPro

With populists, expect populism

Member since Jan 2004

466927 posts

Posted on 8/27/24 at 2:29 pm to Mike da Tigah

quote:
Except the Supreme Court of course

Dobbs in no way restricted national action on abortion.

Dobbs said the reasoning of Roe was not proper, and the national right that Roe created was rescinded.

It made no statements about federal power being used properly, other than Kavanaugh referencing Congress acting (which means he likely thinks it could be part of federal legislation).

Posted by llfshoals

Member since Nov 2010

20579 posts

Posted on 8/27/24 at 2:29 pm to SlowFlowPro

quote:
Again, literally a majority of Americans disagree with you.

Can they support their opinion? Since you seem to agree with them perhaps you’d like to describe the human life cycle in terms that fits their opinion.

quote:
*to your satisfaction and your framing

Human life cycle. It’s not complicated. Since you agree with them, give it a shot. None of them can, you think you’re up to the task?

quote:
quote:I don’t see that as ever being possible. Of course you don't.

That’s because I value children. You do not, you’ve made that clear

Posted by SlowFlowPro

With populists, expect populism

Member since Jan 2004

466927 posts

Posted on 8/27/24 at 2:35 pm to wackatimesthree

quote:
You keep using the word "allowed." How was this guy "allowed" to frame his own message

Youngkin actually took a stance, which defined his position.

Trump has not, which has allowed others to define his position.

quote:
if only "extremists" are "allowed" to frame it?

Mis-statement of my argument.

Extremists are allowed to frame positions against weak or silent pols, like Trump.

quote:
An appeal to ridicule. If you're going to use words like "reasonable," one would think you could explain why your viewpoint was actually reasonable.

I don't have to. The data shows how the population feels.

quote:
Otherwise you should just tell the truth. For all of your insinuations that this is about reason and logic for you, and emotion and anti-logical personal beliefs for those who disagree, it's actually the other way around. Disagree? Then let's hear the logic.

You're not going to change the data of national opinion by asking me to explain things.

You're having an argument with a faceless population of tens of millions.

quote:
Good thing we have a constitutional republic.

Which is also a democracy. People vote to determine elections.

quote:
Regardless, "popular" is not the same as "reasonable," so my point remains.

Reasonable is popular.

Extremist is not popular.

Reasonable wins more elections than extremist.

quote:
So he just adopted the same policy they did then?

No. Straw man.

He adopted a reasonable GOP policy. That's not the typical DEM policy.

McCauliffe was supporting late-term abortions in that race, repealing the resrictions Youngkin supported, and funding Planned Parenthood.

They did not adopt the same policies.

Posted by llfshoals

Member since Nov 2010

20579 posts

Posted on 8/27/24 at 2:36 pm to SlowFlowPro

quote:
quote:being a party that believes humanity starts at conception. You'd be an extreme minority party.

Facts are inconvenient these days. A sizable portion thinks you can change sex, which is impossible for mammalian species. That’s the level of insanity that reigns today.

It’s a basic scientific fact that at conception a new life begins. It has unique DNA. From that moment it is human and begins the process of development, which has long been understood and documented extensively.

At no point is it ever anything but human, it is not possible for it to be anything else.

A is A.