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re: A Call to Christian Unity
Posted on 9/1/25 at 1:45 pm to StrongOffer
Posted on 9/1/25 at 1:45 pm to StrongOffer
The original Nicene Creed said that the Holy Spirit Proceeds from the Father. A Pope a long time ago changed it to proceeds from the Father and the Son to combat the spread of Arianism in the West. There is no other reason why the Pope changed it.
1
Posted on 9/1/25 at 1:47 pm to StrongOffer
Jesus is begotten of the Father. The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father. Those are two different things.
Further, there was never a point when the Father existed and the Son and Holy Spirit did not.
Further, there was never a point when the Father existed and the Son and Holy Spirit did not.
Posted on 9/1/25 at 1:48 pm to Uga Alum
quote:Exactly, it was added to fight against the notion that Jesus was not God. You agree with that.
A Pope a long time ago changed it to proceeds from the Father and the Son to combat the spread of Arianism in the West.
Posted on 9/1/25 at 1:49 pm to Uga Alum
Thanks for this thread. As long as you believe that salvation is through Christ and Christ alone then I can ride with you any day.
Posted on 9/1/25 at 1:50 pm to StrongOffer
Yes, but the wording that the Pope used to change the Creed is incorrect because it changes the meaning. It makes the Holy Spirit subservient to the Father and the Son.
Posted on 9/1/25 at 1:54 pm to Uga Alum
quote:It really doesn’t. I can say this because no Catholic who recites it believes it means that and no Church Father would agree it means that. It’s non-Catholics who are changing the definition and saying it’s what we belief…when we don’t.
It makes the Holy Spirit subservient to the Father and the Son.
Posted on 9/1/25 at 2:02 pm to StrongOffer
Right, I understand that is not what you personally believe. But logically speaking, if you read the Nicene Creed and think it through, you will come to the conclusion that the wording that the Pope used when adding the Filioque changes the whole structure of the Trinity.
If you believe that the Holy Spirit is not subservient to the Father and the Son, then I invite you to talk to your nearest Orthodox priest. Perhaps you are an Orthodox Christian without realizing it.
If you believe that the Holy Spirit is not subservient to the Father and the Son, then I invite you to talk to your nearest Orthodox priest. Perhaps you are an Orthodox Christian without realizing it.
Posted on 9/1/25 at 2:03 pm to Uga Alum
quote:
Yes, but the wording that the Pope used to change the Creed is incorrect because it changes the meaning. It makes the Holy Spirit subservient to the Father and the Son.
The language is "dangerous" as some could interpret it as the Holy Spirit is less than God, and yes, it is a good point of distinction that the Holy Spirit is part of the co-equal Triune.
But to note, this thread got anchored and has 3 down votes.
There are two people who pretend to be respectively Orthodox and Catholic who spend their time slamming other Christians and praising Muslims as totally aligned with Christianity, yet refuse to blaspheme Muhammad.
There are Mormons and Jehovah's witnesses who pretend to be Christians and creep into every religious thread and completely attempt to derail and misinform everything to create doubt.
The forces that caused the Catholic Church to go to a less accurate wording are still alive and on the move.
They want us at war with each other.
I really do appreciate how clean, respectful and informed this thread was.
You all rock!
Posted on 9/1/25 at 2:08 pm to Uga Alum
quote:Well I guess I’m not logical. I certainly didn’t come to that conclusion. It’s hard to ever find understanding when the question is of the Catholic faith, and when every faithful Catholic holds one view and you insist we all hold another. Maybe you should judge us on our actual answer to the question and not your interpretation.
But logically speaking, if you read the Nicene Creed and think it through, you will come to the conclusion that the wording that the Pope used when adding the Filioque changes the whole structure of the Trinity.
Posted on 9/1/25 at 2:09 pm to StrongOffer
Perhaps you should change your version of the Creed back to the original? Then there would be no confusion.
Posted on 9/1/25 at 2:13 pm to Uga Alum
Then there would be people saying Catholics don’t believe Jesus is God. There’s only confusion for people wanting there to be confusion.
Posted on 9/1/25 at 2:17 pm to StrongOffer
Why would people suddenly say that Catholics don’t believe Jesus is God if you say that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father? By that same logic, someone could say that Catholics or Orthodox presently don’t believe that the Holy Spirit is God.
This post was edited on 9/1/25 at 2:18 pm
Posted on 9/1/25 at 2:23 pm to Uga Alum
quote:Because Jesus isn’t represented at all and it clarifies that the procession from the Father includes Jesus. It’s really not as complicated as you’re trying to make it.
Why would people suddenly say that Catholics don’t believe Jesus is God if you say that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father?
Posted on 9/1/25 at 2:24 pm to Uga Alum
quote:
Why would people suddenly say that Catholics don’t believe Jesus is God if you say that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father?
quote:
I explained it in my prior post. Each person of the Holy Trinity possesses unique characteristics but is fully and equally God. If the Father and the Son possess the same characteristics that the Holy Spirit does not (being that the Holy Spirit proceeds from them both), that makes the Holy Spirit subservient.
You answered your own question.
It is hard to describe God in human words and minds.
We do the best we can, we have to give each other grace that we are doing the best we can as mere humans.
If all Catholics believe the Holy Spirit is not subservient, then should you not respect their statement?
I do agree it is dangerous language that created certainty in one place but uncertainty in another.
But the meaning is clear, Catholics do a good job with Catechisms to put guardrails in places that are vague. There are many tools to do the job.
We protestants do a variable job on instilling core tenets of the faith, some Churches are amazing, some are a social club.
Posted on 9/1/25 at 2:26 pm to StrongOffer
Jesus isn’t represented at all in what? The Nicene Creed? Are you trying to say Jesus’s role isn’t represented in the Nicene Creed absent the filioque?
Posted on 9/1/25 at 2:29 pm to Uga Alum
Jesus wasn’t represented in the procession from the Father. Just like I said.
Posted on 9/1/25 at 2:31 pm to StrongOffer
But you understand that it doesn’t say that the Holy Spirit proceeds from itself, right? And the Holy Spirit is still God. Just because the Holy Spirit doesn’t proceed from the Son doesn’t mean that the Son isn’t God.
Posted on 9/1/25 at 2:35 pm to Uga Alum
That was the reason it was added in 589 AD. You know the reason it was added because you told me in this thread. It doesn’t however change the meaning to what you said.
For almost 1500 years Catholics have recited this Creed and at no time held that the Holy Spirit is subservient to the Son or Father. We aren’t the ones who are confused by this.
For almost 1500 years Catholics have recited this Creed and at no time held that the Holy Spirit is subservient to the Son or Father. We aren’t the ones who are confused by this.
Posted on 9/1/25 at 2:43 pm to Uga Alum
quote:
But you understand that it doesn’t say that the Holy Spirit proceeds from itself, right? And the Holy Spirit is still God. Just because the Holy Spirit doesn’t proceed from the Son doesn’t mean that the Son isn’t God.
Just because the Holy Spirit Proceeds from The Father (Or the Father and the Son) does not make The Holy Spirit subservient
You really really want this to be true, but no Catholic and no protestant I know ever thinks that.
Things don't mean something for other people just because you say they do.
This is a major problem across Christianity, we need to give each other grace to allow them to explain what their faith is.
Catholic's faith is what they make of it, not what you or I make of it.
I find the Catholic adoration of Mary unsettling.
But when they tell me they do not worship her as God, I take their words about their beliefs and I have to take their good faith into consideration over my interpretation of the intent behind their actions.
Just as Catholics and Orthodox see Protestants as "Hating Mary", Protestants do adore Mary, she is the best human example of how joyfully obedient we should be to God.
She is always one of the main characters in any Protestant Children's book, and thousands of Sermons are given weekly on Mary.
We must give each other respect and grace to not judge another's heart on how we interpreted on points where we both say we agree in good faith.
This post was edited on 9/1/25 at 2:44 pm
Posted on 9/1/25 at 2:49 pm to Narax
The one and only belief that truly matters is:
Does one believe and have faith in Jesus's sacrifice and shed blood can we access grace needed to overcome our sin and make us worthy.
Thats it. Jesus will work thru the rest when we face Him.
IMHO
All the rest is just mankind doing mankind things.
Does one believe and have faith in Jesus's sacrifice and shed blood can we access grace needed to overcome our sin and make us worthy.
Thats it. Jesus will work thru the rest when we face Him.
IMHO
All the rest is just mankind doing mankind things.
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