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re: 16th and 17th ammendment destroyed this country
Posted on 6/3/21 at 10:09 am to Indefatigable
Posted on 6/3/21 at 10:09 am to Indefatigable
quote:
you'd be paying the bill somewhere no matter what they called it or how it was structured.
At least with a National Retail Sales Tax, it's a wash with corporate income taxes that are embedded into the retail price that you pay at the register. The major differences would be that while prices at the POS stay the same, you're buying it with your entire paycheck. Additionally, EVERYONE would be paying into the Treasury. Citizens, illegals, black market economy, foreign tourists. Everyone.
My gripe with the 17th Amendment is that it subverts the Founders' intent to empower the states themselves with representation in Washington. The House does the business of the people. The Senate presents the interest of the states. Together they have to find common ground.
Popular election of Senators destroyed that balance.
1
Posted on 6/3/21 at 10:49 am to roadGator
It’s just a bad argument.
The founding fathers were neither infallible nor some unified force that agreed on everything.
While I’m at it, special interest groups buying senators isn’t a good argument either. They buy whole state legislatures all the time.
The founding fathers were neither infallible nor some unified force that agreed on everything.
While I’m at it, special interest groups buying senators isn’t a good argument either. They buy whole state legislatures all the time.
Posted on 6/3/21 at 10:51 am to aggressor
All in the excellent book….”The Creature from Jekyll Island”
Posted on 6/3/21 at 11:01 am to Auburn1968
quote:
It should be amended to return it to state legislature appointed senators serving at the pleasure of the states and resorting to a popular vote only if there is a deadlock in the appointment.
It makes your local representation at the state level via governor/state house & senate much more important. (Of course, there should be a premium placed on these positions, rather than an afterthought for most voters like they currently are).
Posted on 6/3/21 at 11:51 am to VoxDawg
quote:
At least with a National Retail Sales Tax, it's a wash with corporate income taxes that are embedded into the retail price that you pay at the register. The major differences would be that while prices at the POS stay the same, you're buying it with your entire paycheck. Additionally, EVERYONE would be paying into the Treasury. Citizens, illegals, black market economy, foreign tourists. Everyone.
Fair enough. And I ultimately agree with you that the Founders did not envision the federal income tax--because they did not envision a need for it. Sadly the States let it happen.
quote:
My gripe with the 17th Amendment is that it subverts the Founders' intent to empower the states themselves with representation in Washington. The House does the business of the people. The Senate presents the interest of the states. Together they have to find common ground.
Popular election of Senators destroyed that balance.
Definitely agree here. I am personally a fan of how Germany's legislative branch is set up. The lower house (Bundestag) is elected via mixed-member proportional representation. The way they allocate is complicated, but ultimately 299 members are elected via single member constituencies using first-past-the-post, and the remaining 400 or so are elected via party lists based on the proportional results of each party in each state. Scotland has a similar system.
The upper house (Bundesrat) directly represents the government of the federal states.
This allows for federal representation, while also allowing minority parties to obtain seats in the government they otherwise would never have in a pure single member constituency election. (think Republicans in California, or Democrats in places like OK)
ETA: this pic gives a visual of how it worked in their most recent election back in 2017:
This post was edited on 6/3/21 at 11:54 am
Posted on 6/3/21 at 12:02 pm to burger bearcat
quote:
The 17th took away the proper representation that was supposed to be in the Senate. We would have 64 Republican senators right now.
How would you have 64 Republican senators by doing away with the 17th amendment?
Posted on 6/3/21 at 12:14 pm to arp0925
quote:
How would you have 64 Republican senators by doing away with the 17th amendment?
My guess is that there are 32 GOP-controlled state legislatures.
Posted on 6/3/21 at 12:56 pm to burger bearcat
quote:
The 17th took away the proper representation that was supposed to be in the Senate. We would have 64 Republican senators right now.
This is correct. The Senate was meant to be a representation of the state legislatures in Congress. Now, you have special interests buying votes and no control over them via the state legislatures. Hell, Congress should be paid directly by the states that they represent.
Posted on 6/3/21 at 12:57 pm to Shenanigans
quote:
I love my wife
quote:
but I’m gonna say 19th is right up there
Posted on 6/3/21 at 1:08 pm to BRUNNIN4
quote:
19th is just as bad
MF this!. Functional PET scans show that females make their decisions based on emotions, not logic.
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