re: Retriever training

This guy.

An old timer vet/dog trainer told me recently he appreciates the e collar and wasn’t stubborn to begin using it because it was the single greatest dog training tool invented.

Point being, books written before say the 70/80s are likely lacking vital information about utilizing an e collar correctly.

Blinds are about the only time force makes some sense, still think it’s value is way over emphasized by most. A half way decent dog knows when actual hunting is taking place and a fetch command means they get to go hunt up a bird, a whistle to stop if they get off track and hand signals to get back in the area. All of these can be accomplished without force fetch.

I think maybe you should re-read your posts. You specifically said the point of force training is to “cover up poor hunting genetics” and make dogs play dog games. Again, force training has very little to do with teaching a good retriever to retrieve ducks.

FF takes a dog that already has those skills and instincts and conditions it to handle pressure, be stable under pressure, and react accordingly - all important skills when faced with a stressful hunting situation. Robert Milner himself stated that a dog that has been force fetched properly is much less likely to break down under a high pressure situation than a dog who hasn’t. Bill Hillman, whose young dog training philosophy is very similar to Milners, says the same.

FWIW, I have run hunt tests with my current young dog only because it motivated me to stay consistent with her training, but I train dogs to hunt - not play dog games. I have incredibly strong bonds with my dogs and they are my family. My young dog was the most difficult dog I’ve ever forced but we got through it patience and at her speed. She had a ton of drive prior to force, but now she runs blinds almost just as hard as her marks and she is confident and trusts herself. It also reinforced our relationship and she loves the hell out of me, which is odd considering how inhumane I’m hearing force training is.

Field trials =\= hunt tests =\= hunting. No amount of ribbons make a good bird dog by any means, but the level of precision involved in the higher levels of testing and trials is impressive and it indicates that a particular dog is capable of understanding a very high level of training. It’s always interesting to me because the guys in the “my meat dog is better than your QAA dog” crowd typically takes the position that the dog game guys do it to stroke their egos. But in my experience, the anti-dog game guys’ egos are just as big, if not bigger.

Have you been working with the pup on obedience at all on your own?

That's great. You've got a head start then. If you decide you don't want to train your dog yourself, I think it's totally realistic for you to get him/her to a started level within a few months. If you are interested in chatting with some trainers, let me know what area you're in and I can try to post some recommendations.

Would reiterate that you will probably get more out of the process by training yourself, though, and you'll develop a much tighter bond with the pup.

Welcome to a fun and exciting world. There's nothing fast or sexy about training a retriever. No matter which method you choose, It's a ton of repetition that can get quite boring for the trainer. But you can't move at your speed you have to advance at the dogs speed. I'm working on a dog now that I moved through FF a little too quickly. Wouldn't have given you a nickel for her three weeks ago. I went back and took my time with her and shes making me look like I know what I'm doing right now running Ts. You'll never have a better partner than a dog that you have trained well.

And remember the only thing two dog trainers will agree on it that the third guy is doing it wrong!

I personally trained 3 kick arse dogs, and know of 3 other kick arse dogs trained with water dog. All on the whistle, long blinds, multiple marks, cold, deep, ice, snow no matter. None were force fetched .

Two were notoriously hard-headed chessies.

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CatSquirrel

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You sound just like the typical arrogant a-hole trainers I have had dealings with. They all shut their pie holes when my dog smoked theirs in hunt tests .

FYI, one of those labs, and both chessies were trained by professionals that used water dog . All were excellent hunting dogs. Mine were a touch better, I believe due to the bond we had of me being their trainer.

Shrug…..I don’t care what you think of me. Certainly not anything to do with dog training.

If I’m arrogant it’s because I’ve trained dogs to the highest measurable levels possible (barring a National Open); and that includes some very nice working dogs that never stepped to the line in a test or trial.

That means Grands and Master National dogs as well as All Age Field Trial dogs.

And if you think I don’t appreciate a good working dog then you’re dead wrong.

I just have the experience to know you have an inflated opinion of Water Dog and your animals.

And I certainly know you don’t “smoke” other dogs at hunt tests since they’re judged on a pass/fail basis. BTW, I judge HT’s too.