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Started By
Message
re: great things come from hard work and long hours put into it!
Posted on 5/20/10 at 6:55 pm to oilfieldtiger
Posted on 5/20/10 at 6:55 pm to oilfieldtiger
quote:
what they are trying to do w/ the containment dome / top hat / 4" stinger / top kill / etc has pretty much never even been considered before today
Dude, not trying to be a prick - and I really do greatly appreciate the info that you and the other people in the industry bring to the board - but you don't think there's a slight problem with what you just said here? It's the kind of sentiment that several people have repeated and repeated, and I think it's pretty much entirely wrong.
Aren't there similar physical failsafe technologies developed for shallow drilling? Do you really mean to say that no one even considered that a similar technology might be needed in case of catastrophic mechanical failure that would allow a breached well to flow unimpeded for a month? If someone had thought of it, do you really think that it's acceptable that no one had done the engineering and testing on such a physical failsafe device before now?
It's complicated, we all understand this even if we don't work in the field. It's expensive to do engineering and testing on preventative measures, and it's impossible to prepare for every little thing that can go wrong. But don't you think that this particular thing should have been figured out ahead of time?
It's not even some moon-base level stuff, here. It should have been common sense. It should have been done. It should be done NOW, along with all of the other things that were skipped over in this country because the right pockets were greased.
Sorry, end of rant, but a month is too damned long for this. If it takes two more months, that's just complete crap.
This post was edited on 5/20/10 at 6:57 pm
2
Posted on 5/20/10 at 7:18 pm to CrazyTigerFan
did you not read the entire post -- where i said this was unacceptable, and i hoped (dare i say, i know) this won't be the case going forward?
and in the case of a blowout w/ a surface wellhead, the first step is to put out the fire (when you see red adair hauling dynamite out and detonating it to snuff it out), and the damaged wellhead & well control equipment is sawed off and removed.
then a valve can be nippled up on top of the sub of the flowing well exposed above the water line / surface. This valve is lowered over in the open position w/ the flow going through it. After it's nippled up, it's closed and the well is secured.
if you were going to attemp this on this subsea wellhead, what you would first due is cut away the riser from the top of the BOP stack, and the well would be flowing straight out of the stack -- no more riser leak. you would then latched onto the top of the BOP and use the ROV to release the the Lower Marine Riser Package (which has teh annulars) -- the upper part of the stack. This would then be recovered to surface. Latching and unlatching the LMRP is a standard part of hurricane evacuations, and the stack is designed to function in this way.
This would leave a profile looking up that is designed to be latched using a hydraulically actuated connector, and that could hold the necessary pressure here. A second BOP stack would then be run down on top and latched onto this profile. The stack would probably have to be lowered into place w/ a modified joint on top of it that would divert the flow away as the stack is lowered onto the flowing well.
Once it's latched, you could shut the blind shear rams and the well would be secure.
there's a few major problems w/ this scenario though. first, when the LMRP is removed the flowrate out of the well may increase. second, if the wellhead was significantly damaged when the rig fell over, adding the additional ~400k lbs of BOP stack may further push it over -- resulting in it yielding at the mudline. and probably making all of this considerably worse -- totally unrestricted flow.
and in the case of a blowout w/ a surface wellhead, the first step is to put out the fire (when you see red adair hauling dynamite out and detonating it to snuff it out), and the damaged wellhead & well control equipment is sawed off and removed.
then a valve can be nippled up on top of the sub of the flowing well exposed above the water line / surface. This valve is lowered over in the open position w/ the flow going through it. After it's nippled up, it's closed and the well is secured.
if you were going to attemp this on this subsea wellhead, what you would first due is cut away the riser from the top of the BOP stack, and the well would be flowing straight out of the stack -- no more riser leak. you would then latched onto the top of the BOP and use the ROV to release the the Lower Marine Riser Package (which has teh annulars) -- the upper part of the stack. This would then be recovered to surface. Latching and unlatching the LMRP is a standard part of hurricane evacuations, and the stack is designed to function in this way.
This would leave a profile looking up that is designed to be latched using a hydraulically actuated connector, and that could hold the necessary pressure here. A second BOP stack would then be run down on top and latched onto this profile. The stack would probably have to be lowered into place w/ a modified joint on top of it that would divert the flow away as the stack is lowered onto the flowing well.
Once it's latched, you could shut the blind shear rams and the well would be secure.
there's a few major problems w/ this scenario though. first, when the LMRP is removed the flowrate out of the well may increase. second, if the wellhead was significantly damaged when the rig fell over, adding the additional ~400k lbs of BOP stack may further push it over -- resulting in it yielding at the mudline. and probably making all of this considerably worse -- totally unrestricted flow.
This post was edited on 5/20/10 at 7:39 pm
Posted on 5/20/10 at 7:28 pm to oilfieldtiger
There are some dumb frickers who have no reading comprehension whatsoever. It is funny how those are the same ones who have no idea of what is happening other than what they have found on the internet.
Posted on 5/20/10 at 8:26 pm to CrazyTigerFan
The BOP is the device that is suppose to keep this from happening. In this case, it was not successful in shutting the well in. No matter how far technology goes, anything mechanical will always have a chance for failure. Equipment is always tested to detect failures. It is extremely unfortunate it failed. You may be able to blame the actual piece of equipment in this case, but don't blame technology. All of the secondary equipment, tophat, stinger, etc, is a last resort and are case specific, and should not be relied on.
Posted on 5/20/10 at 9:01 pm to TigerFred
You say I'm a dumb fricker. I say the people who have allowed this flow to continue for a month with failure after failure are dumb frickers, and that the people who are satisfied with the fact that this is allowed to happen are dumb frickers. Perspective.
ETA: As for reading comprehension, would you say that if the following statement is accurate, then the people involved are dumb frickers?
ETA: As for reading comprehension, would you say that if the following statement is accurate, then the people involved are dumb frickers?
quote:
what they are trying to do w/ the containment dome / top hat / 4" stinger / top kill / etc has pretty much never even been considered before today
This post was edited on 5/20/10 at 10:34 pm
Posted on 5/20/10 at 9:33 pm to TigerFred
quote:
There are some dumb frickers who have no reading comprehension whatsoever. It is funny how those are the same ones who have no idea of what is happening other than what they have found on the internet.
i found that on the fricking internet. and i have a pretty good idea that shite like that is happening all around my state because BP has no fricking clue as to how to stop their well from spewing this shite all over Louisiana and they haven't had a clue for the month that this has been going on.
Posted on 5/20/10 at 11:17 pm to YatTigah
quote:
BP has no fricking clue as to how to stop their well from spewing this shite all over Louisiana and they haven't had a clue for the month that this has been going on.
Ok, I will play along, who does? BP has 14,000+ people working the problem, they almost immediately started drilling the two relief wells, which is the ultimate solution to stopping the leak. They can't take a chance on a solution, that if not successful will make the leak worse. Yes, everyone wishes the leak were stopped by now, especially BP.
Posted on 5/20/10 at 11:20 pm to JWS3
that still doesn't answer the overarching question.
which is if you can do something, but fricking it up results in something like this and fricking it up isn't particularly hard, then should you be doing it?
if a company with the resources and wealth of BP cannot stop this leak, should they be drilling in deepwater?
which is if you can do something, but fricking it up results in something like this and fricking it up isn't particularly hard, then should you be doing it?
if a company with the resources and wealth of BP cannot stop this leak, should they be drilling in deepwater?
Posted on 5/20/10 at 11:34 pm to YatTigah
quote:
should they be drilling in deepwater?
i think an incident of this magnitude was inconceivable until it happened. i do this for a living and thought that our well designs, equipment designs, planning, and skill was sufficient that something like this would never happen -- at least not in the gulf of mexico. in fact, basically every part of the way we go about our work is to mitigate this exact scenario from happening. if worst came to worst, i always thought i could depend on the auto-shear sequence of the BOP's to get the well shut-in even if everyone was dead at surface. obviously, that did not happen here.
obviously, everything has changed w/ this incident, and it will be very intersting to see what the investigation reveals.
i believe we can drill in the deepwater safely going forward, we are drilling in the deepwater safely at throughout the world today, and i know that we have drilled in the deepwater safely. going forward, obviously there will be increased scrutiny, regulations, and more robust contingency plans -- which i believe will be by and large welcomed by the industry.
Posted on 5/20/10 at 11:43 pm to YatTigah
quote:
which is if you can do something, but fricking it up results in something like this and fricking it up isn't particularly hard, then should you be doing it?
It is not particularly hard to crash a passenger plane, the lives of thousands of people would be adversly affected by one crash, should we stop all flying until it is 100 percent foolproof?
Posted on 5/20/10 at 11:49 pm to oilfieldtiger
quote:
i think an incident of this magnitude was inconceivable until it happened. i do this for a living and thought that our well designs, equipment designs, planning, and skill was sufficient that something like this would never happen -- at least not in the gulf of mexico. in fact, basically every part of the way we go about our work is to mitigate this exact scenario from happening. if worst came to worst, i always thought i could depend on the auto-shear sequence of the BOP's to get the well shut-in even if everyone was dead at surface. obviously, that did not happen here.
obviously, everything has changed w/ this incident, and it will be very intersting to see what the investigation reveals.
i believe we can drill in the deepwater safely going forward, we are drilling in the deepwater safely at throughout the world today, and i know that we have drilled in the deepwater safely. going forward, obviously there will be increased scrutiny, regulations, and more robust contingency plans -- which i believe will be by and large welcomed by the industry.
Oilfield Tiger, you will not find a bigger supporter of the oil industry than I as my family has owned offshore service vessels operating in the Gulf for many years.
While I agree that deepwater drilling carries huge risks this whole incident begs the question:
"While an incident like this was never expected, shouldn't BP (and all other majors for that matter) have had plans in place to shut off a well if it blows apart in the deepwater like this?
Shouldn't have contingencies been tested and put into place beforehand so as to not do it on the fly as it appears BP is dong now?
Posted on 5/21/10 at 12:08 am to JWS3
quote:
It is not particularly hard to crash a passenger plane, the lives of thousands of people would be adversly affected by one crash, should we stop all flying until it is 100 percent foolproof?
the failure of the airplane affects the people who are on the plane and their families.
the failure has the potential to effectively destroy a state and ruin an ocean for generations.
try another analogy.
Posted on 5/21/10 at 12:29 am to Coastal Tiger
quote:
While an incident like this was never expected, shouldn't BP (and all other majors for that matter) have had plans in place to shut off a well if it blows apart in the deepwater like this?
They did, the blowout preventer, it had I belive six independent stages that could have controlled the well, each with redundent control,and a "deadman" activation system. They all obviously failed, should they have been required to have two BOP stacks, what if they all fail? Whether it is nuclear reactors, aircraft, or oil wells, the number of possible failure modes is infinite. At some point in a design you have to stop looking at all the what-ifs, and call it finished, hoping you have engineered against all of the most probable failures. After this incident, BOP designs will be examined under a microscope, and changes made, but it will never be perfect, nothing designed by man is.
Posted on 5/21/10 at 4:18 am to Red4
I am pro oil and pro BP. Twenty years ago when the oil industry in the Gulf of Mexico was drying up, the government offered incentives for companies to "go where no man has gone before" and drill in the deep water of the GoM. BP was one of the few companies with deep enough pockets to dump billions into new technology to find and extract oil in depths that were unimaginabe not that long ago. It revived the oil industry and the economy. I don't think most people realize just how much money the oil industry pumps into this state and region, both directly and indirectly. While the rest of the country has been in a recession the last couple years, Louisiana has faired much better than most states. Why do you think that is? One word, OIL. You can't take the good without the bad. There is inherent risk involved with what we do out there. This is a very unfortunate incident that resulted from multiple failures, some of which may be human. BP is doing everything possible to stop the oil, clean it up, and make this situation right. Very few companies have deep enough pockets to do what BP has done thus far, and will continue to do to rectify this situation. I don't think the masses understand that no one in the world has the technology to stop this thing from flowing. I am so tired of the spin the media is putting on this, I barely listen any more. I understand it is a bad situation with the potential to get much worse. So far very little oil has made landfall. People that are legitimately effected by this are being paid by BP. I could go on but I wont. 
Posted on 5/21/10 at 7:43 am to YatTigah
quote:
try another analogy
nuclear meltdown?
i'm just throwing that out there - i have no experience in that field, so i don't know anything about the safeguards in place to prevent it.
quote:
YatTigah
look, we'll just have to agree to disagree on this. i think we can do this safely going forward, and you probably never will. i'm not trying to justify anything that's happened, i'm just trying to bring some technical knowledge to the discussion.
Posted on 5/21/10 at 8:53 am to EWE TIGER
quote:
how much money the oil industry pumps into this state and region
That's a narrow minded look at the situation. The costs and damages that will be affected by this reach much further than your state.
quote:
BP is doing everything possible to stop the oil, clean it up, and make this situation right
The problem is, they've not been able to stop it in a month, there is no way they can clean up thousands of square miles of oil and they will never be able to rectify the damages that will be done and make things "right".
quote:
I don't think the masses understand that no one in the world has the technology to stop this thing from flowing
Can't rectify things if you can't stop things.
quote:
I am so tired of the spin the media is putting on this, I barely listen any more
I don't need the news, to see the satellite imagery, and have enough common sense, that this doesn't need to make landfall to destroy what has been a fertile Gulf. Now it's making it's way to reefs at the tip of Florida, the damage this will cause is incalculable.
quote:
People that are legitimately effected by this are being paid by BP.
How do you measure the quality of life for the millions of people that have enjoyed the Gulf and what it's offered for generations? There are some things, money doesn't replace.
quote:
I could go on but I wont
Posted on 5/21/10 at 8:57 am to oilfieldtiger
quote:
look, we'll just have to agree to disagree on this. i think we can do this safely going forward, and you probably never will. i'm not trying to justify anything that's happened, i'm just trying to bring some technical knowledge to the discussion.
i wasn't trying to push your buttons or be rude or anything. i really appreciate the knowledge that you and others have brought to this board.
i just have a big problem with some of the reasoning some people are using regarding this disaster. i can't accept BP constantly saying that everything they want to do is highly suspect because they're doing it in 5k feet of water. if they managed to float on the ocean's surface, send a drill 5k feet below the water, and then drill 10k feet into the seabed and extract oil then you should be able to stop this.
i know you've said that each level of failsafe in the BOP completely failing is fairly unforeseen, but you have noted before that BOP shears can't cut through drill collars or liner hanger. is it possible to make shears strong enough to do this or are these sections of the riser just too strong?
another question is about relief wells. could relief wells be drilled ahead of time and then sealed unless it was necessary to kill the well during an emergency? i know it wouldn't be cheap but i imagine it'd be cheaper for BP than this is going to end up being.
basically, it's not that i don't think deepwater drilling can be done safely, but i don't think enough was done to make it was safe as possible. i mean, if it's left up to BP to keep the rig operating when the BOP has a hydraulic leak and a dead battery then not enough is being done.
Posted on 5/21/10 at 9:10 am to Kajungee
quote:
Look I have always been behind the oil industry in Louisiana.
I realize how critical it is not to depend on other countries to provide the energy that drives this country.
I realize how many jobs they provide for south Louisiana.
I also realize that Media will sensationalize everything when given half a chance and they have blown a lot of things out of proportion.
With all that said.. This is now really starting to look like a clusterfrick.
I understand accidents will happen and I even understand an occasional blowout or small spill.
But this is really starting to make me sick.
I said the first week, if they just can get it capped and keep it out of the marsh, things will be back to normal soon enough.
Now that is all out the window...and I for one am not happy.
Since I was a kid there has been no place on earth like spending time on the coast of LA fishing, crabing, shrimping. Its a way of life for many people.
Now I am even beginning to wonder if it will ever be the same.
+.95
I think the coast will eventually bounce back, hopefully stronger and more protected than ever.
However it is becoming evident to me that BP is not being transparent in this disaster, for that, they need to answer a few questions to the American public.
We deserve better stewards of our resources than BP has shown to be, not because of the accident itself, but for the woeful performance since.
Posted on 5/21/10 at 9:58 am to YatTigah
quote:
is it possible to make shears strong enough to do this or are these sections of the riser just too strong?
i would answer this w/ a qualified no. the most common unshearable elements would be drill collars (at most ~1000' of them run at the bottom of a drill string), casing / liner hangers (which are ~40-100' in length depending upon the specifics of the individual system), and tool joints.
There is a tool joint on the top and bottom of every piece of drill pipe (so either every 32' or every 44' depending upon the "range" of pipe), and it is the thick part of the pipe where you make the conneciton to the next joint. it's very thick and robust because that's where the tongs (big wrenches) have to bite and apply 10's of thousands of foot lbs of torque to adequately make up the connection. as an example 6 5/8" OD drill pipe has a tool joint that is 8.5" OD. However, tool joints are only 12 - 18" long, and we understand they are unshearable. So the first thing we do is make sure you always know where a tool joint is in the BOP stack to make sure nothing will close on it. Second, the shear rams are spaced out such that if 1 set of rams hits a tool joint out of bad luck, the other set will miss it.
that cameron super shear may be able to cut a collar or a tool joint in tension; however, the problem comes when you're trying to cut something in compression. The blades are shearing the tubular, but due to compression the item you're cutting is feeding more and more material into the area -- eventually stopping the blade before a full cut can be achieved.
i can't really think of a way to resolve that issue -- but i'm not a BOP designer by trade.
shear rams can cut damn near anything, but we do recognize the situations when an unshearable element is across the BOP stack, and we do take special precations in those situations. What happened here w/ the Horizon is so far out of the scope of normal operations, i can't say what they would have been doing. although, they were sitting in one place circulating and preparing to spot a cement plug, so i'm sure they had a handle on where the tool joint was in their stack at that time.
Posted on 5/21/10 at 5:05 pm to Alahunter
quote:
That's a narrow minded look at the situation. The costs and damages that will be affected by this reach much further than your state.
I said state and region. There are plenty of Alabama hicks working in the oil industry along the gulf coast and offshore. Including Mobile and Theodore which have large shorebases supporting drilling and production. Also have shipyards building vessels to support the oil industry.
quote:
The problem is, they've not been able to stop it in a month, there is no way they can clean up thousands of square miles of oil and they will never be able to rectify the damages that will be done and make things "right".
You're right, they haven't stopped it. They have slowed it down, and are continuing to try different methods to stop it. The rest of your comments are your opinion, not fact. You don't know how much damage will be done or what can be done to make it "right"
quote:
Can't rectify things if you can't stop things.
ok
quote:
I don't need the news, to see the satellite imagery, and have enough common sense, that this doesn't need to make landfall to destroy what has been a fertile Gulf. Now it's making it's way to reefs at the tip of Florida, the damage this will cause is incalculable.
If it doesn't make landfall then it is a drop in the bucket and not only doesn't destroy the Gulf but has very little overall impact on wildlife.
quote:
How do you measure the quality of life for the millions of people that have enjoyed the Gulf and what it's offered for generations? There are some things, money doesn't replace.
The impact thus far has been minimal. The GoM has not been destroyed and "millions" of people have not been impacted. All commercial and sport fisherman I know have had little if any impact. Who do you know that has been impacted? Not someone you've seen on TV or read about on the internet, you personally?
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